microcosmic orbit, fire path, water path

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microcosmic orbit, fire path, water path

Postby laotse » Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:45 am

hi

i don't read the books of dr. yang and i read in this forum from water and fire path of microcosmic.

there was said the fire path can over-heat the organs and the water path is very save.

so what is the fire path, what is the water path?

regards
laotse
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Postby darth_freak » Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:25 am

you should read Master Yang's books. Especially the last one on small circulation!

and the water path is the hardest to practice.
"Turn your butt!"
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variation on a theme

Postby yeniseri » Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:35 pm

laotse,

Different teachers bring different understanding to even the same methods so I will try to define. As I inderstand water breathing is quiet breathing, relaxed body while fire is exaggereated or 'forced breathing' similar to chandali breathing of yoga.

In the system of one teacher of mine, water (yin) meditation involved "imagining being surrounded by water while raising hands up to head and bring into baihui and allow water to permeate through body to yongquan and let stay for 10 seconds". A type to self hypnosis to relax the body and foster union with the elements". Do 3x. My teacher's idea was fire breathing was already present in our lives (through stress and anxiety, and stuff) so we needed to calm down.

I am really ignorant on small circulation and large circulation since my teachers rarely mentioned that stuff and when they did, it was stated to be unreliable! Much of what I know I have seen in books so I cannot say much.

I would suggest taking a course from Dr Yang first so start small and get the book later. Reading is easy but practice is worth more.

good luck.
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Postby laotse » Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:57 pm

hi

ah ok, thank you.
i thought so.
i don't like fire methods, like reverse breathing, etc.
i think naturally breathing is better.

but for example kumar frantzis said the microcosmic orbit is also a fire method. in his system of taoist water qigong there are practises like that you describe.
i like this method also, i do that every evening before sleeping.

but so they all use the same names for different things, that builds confusion.

i don't like to go to boston to a qigong course. thats to much for me.
i see no danger in the method of micocosmic, also when you do this water meditation you described for a long time. so you will have a good grounding and there's no reason to be frightened about dangers with small circulation.
i never heard from a serious case of demage after this practise, only people who heard from other people who heard from other people, etc.

regards
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Postby darth_freak » Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:18 pm

microscopic orbit is to be practised sitting.

the water path is not like using water qi.

the fire path is when you lead the qi up along the spine (governing vessel) to baihui, then go down along the conception vessel.

now the water path is: instead of going up along the spine, you go up IN the spine to the 3rd eye; you go through the thrusting vessel. And that's why it's much harder. and then you go down along the conception vessel.

the thing is you can have some qi that stagnates in your bone marrow or your brain when you use the water path. It can easily cause headaches at a minimal level...so with a higher level of qi going up there...I wouldn't want to try without proper guidance.

I just tell you this. Then if you wanna try your way, do it and tell us what happens... :roll:
"Turn your butt!"
Master Yang.

Xavier
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Postby laotse » Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:13 am

hi

what you wouldn't want to try without proper guidance, the fire path or the water path?

why the water path is saver the the fire path, i don't understand that?

do you have guidance?
what are your experience with it? and what what do your teacher do, if you have problemes?
i think in such situations he only can say, do this, or do that. but if your information is good, you can do that by yourself. for example, when qi stagnate painful in the heart, go back to ming-men and collect qi down the navel are bring it down to earth.

the only thing i don't know about is the psychical changing of the mind. nobody speaks about that. what happens when i open my chakra points.

i train microcosmic with a teacher, and he helps me with problemes, but there are no problemes, so i can't understand the warning.
the way of my teacher is to do earthing exercises for one year before practise microcosmic. and it's also important to accept the emotions, which dissolve when a stagnated point dissolves. about this most authors don't speak.

i also don't understand, where is the problem, when qi stagnate in the spine. the reason why somebody do this meditation is to dissolve such blockades. so some pain perhaps is neccessary.

regards
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Postby darth_freak » Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:47 am

the water path isn't safer than the fire path; the fire path would be the safest.

psychical chanches can be awareness, awaking, enlightenment...cool stuff like that.
though you can also kinda go crazy because you start feeling weird stuff around you because your qi is disturbed or your mind is disturbed because too much qi came to your shen.

grounding, as you call it, is good when you want to have your mind going "higher". If you're not rooted, well you'll spirit will "fly away" and you'll be like you've taken a lot of acids or marijuana for a long time...

about the pain in stagnation: as long as it is nothing but pain and that goes away after some time, ok. but some stagnation can get installed and if your qi flow in but the stagnation doesn't wear off, it could make nerves damage and/or local domage.

I'm like you, I've never experienced that or seen people who got that, but it's not a 100% safe practice. I guess none is, anyway.
"Turn your butt!"
Master Yang.

Xavier
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definition in order

Postby yeniseri » Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:56 am

laotse,

1. A thrombus is a physical blockage that can be see with xray instrumental so it is objective.
2. One may not have a thrombus but one's attitude is rigid, unbendable and inflexible and that is part of 'psychological blockage'.
Qi blockage, to me, is not understood in that context and if even we xray the spine, there wil be no qi blckage becaust it cannot be seen! In short, qi blockage may be a figment of imagination based on the aforementioned!

You are using different terminology liek chakra and microcosmic orbit so that may be problematic. There is only one system I am aware that an orbit is practiced in hexianhzhuang and that system has some problem regarding a high exposure of adverse experiences (qi blockage??!!).
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Postby laotse » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:45 am

hi

@darth_freak

thats what i said. the only danger is that too many chi goes in the head. but this is the meaning of grounding before. when you good grounded, its simple to bring the qi back from the head to the feet or the navel.
so you can't get confused.

and so you need grounding not only if you want to go higher.
people in modern society are high enough to need earthing.

nothing in life is 100% safe, isn't it?
many people also practise kundalini yoga, without problemes.

@yeniseri

when you experience the a chi blockade is an imagination, great.
than it is dissolved.
your last sentence i don't understand. my english is not so good.

chakra and microcosmic obit points. where is the difference?



does anyone here practise microcosmic?


regards
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open mind like parachute

Postby yeniseri » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:18 am

Chakra system is Hindu while microcosmic orbit 'Daoist'. They are not equal therefore one cannot mix and match. Either do one or the other then with your teacher see which may be suitable for you.

In Hexiangzhuang there is a 'microsocmic orbit' where one brings 'energy' into bihui down to qihai to huiyin then up to mingmen > dazhui and separate to left and right forearm to laogong. Obviously there is no physical channel but one does feel energy manifesting as heat at 'laogong'. Over time this self hypnisis builds up and manifets as energy which is very powerful but one has to be relaxed. I teach the form without the microsmic orbit energetic because it has the potential to be 'strong'.

Background on Hexiangzhuang:
This method was developed by Pang Heming and Zhao Jinxiang (main promoter) and over time it had a large following. It was realized that the symptoms associated with this qigong was problematic so some patterns were reformatted. Pang Heming realizing this made some changes and he came out with the now known Zhineng qigong. You can sear on what I mentioned to get more background.

A German qigong magazing did some interviews with a practitioner on Hexiangzhuang so perhaps you can ask around.
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Postby laotse » Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:17 am

hi

but the chakra system and the daoist system use the same points.

is chi neng this:

http://www.amazon.de/gp/reader/38330077 ... eader-link

what symptoms was associated with Hexiangzhuang

regards
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Soaring Crane gong (hexiangzhuang)

Postby yeniseri » Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:42 am

Yes. Zhineng is also spelled ChiNeng, Chilel (US version) but they all point to Pang Heming.

Hexianzhuang adverse symptoms are relegated to cardiovascular (anormal cardiac beats-tachycardia, QT (appearance) elongation)gastrointestinal and general pain. I will try to reference the article.
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Postby laotse » Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:06 am

hi

do you practis chi neng?

regards
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ya

Postby yeniseri » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:36 pm

Yes. I do Zhineng dong gong along with hexiangzhuang. I mostly concentrate on the remedy routines of hexianzhaung then do zhineng dong gong encompassing peng qi guan ding fa (lift up and pour chi down), and 3 centres merge.

Wall squatting I do limited repetitions.
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Postby laotse » Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:32 am

hi

and whats your experience with it?

regards
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it is fun

Postby yeniseri » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:27 pm

laotse,

I enjoy it! Doing qigong when one is healthy is distinct from a state of sickness in that when you have youth on your side qigong may seem insignificant but when one is 'sick', the experienc is different.
I say so from having a tumour removed from my neck and doing qigong as a self help therapy vs when one has no health issues.

I think that the best experience is to go through various stages of health and ill health to know the actual experiences(s) asociated with qigong.
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Postby laotse » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:30 am

hi

did you remove your tumor only with qigong?

i think also, there's a different think, to practise qigong when healthy or when sick.
i have chronically headaches, and the only think which removes them is the microcosmic orbit meditation.

regards
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not always

Postby yeniseri » Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:19 pm

No. Over time the tumour (non-cancerous) did shrink but it grew larger so it had to be excised through surgery.

ALso remember that type of food, size (body mass index-BMI) and gender influences headache progression or severity!
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Postby laotse » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:13 pm

hi

i can't understand gender.

how BMI can produce headache?

my weight is not too much. its too little.

but thanks for information

regards
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Postby Dvivid » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:55 pm

Hi to all. Some of the information in this thread is not quite clear. Let's revisit all of it:

FIRE PATH
The Fire Path starts at the mouth, and goes down the front of the torso in the center to the point between your legs, Hui Yin, the perenium. This point is located between your genitals and anus. This first segment of the Fire Path is called the Conception Vessel. It then travels from the perenium, up the center of the back, outside the back of the spine, up the neck and back of the head, to the top of the head, the Bai Hui, and down the front of the head to the mouth. This segment is called the Governing Vessel.

The tongue should touch the roof of the mouth, right behind the teeth, to bridge the two segments, or Vessels.

This is also called the small circulation or the microcosmic orbit. Same thing.

Qi (energy) flows in the Fire Path all day, every day, in a 24 hour cycle*. In qigong, we are only following this natural path and enhancing it slowly. keyword: slowly. too much too soon is what makes it dangerous. *Of course, every one of the trillions of cells in your body is permeated with Qi, but it is more abundant in the Vessels, meridians, channels, and acupoints. More on this later.

WIND PATH
The Wind Path is exactly the same as the Fire path, except the flow is in the opposite direction. it is used to cool down the body, mainly in the front of the body. This is done as part of Kan and Li, water and fire, training. It is a vital part of your Embryonic Breathing practice, in which you lead Qi up from the real lower dan tian (elixir field), and down from the diaphragm, or middle dan tian, and they meet in the center, the huang ting (yellow yard).

WATER PATH
The Water Path is from the lower energy center - the real lower dan tian, up THROUGH the spine to the upper energy center, or upper dan tian, in the center of the brain. The Water Path is dangerous and should not be used without the guidance of a qigong instructor. Dangers are brain damage, disturbed sleep/hormone production, mania, insanity, otherwise known as the popular 'Qi psychosis' everyone likes to talk about. The general rule is, don't try to work with the Water Path until you've mastered both Embryonic Breathing and Small Circulation. Also, you must have prepared the mind itself psychologically and emotionally, and developed a strong ability to hold the upper energy center. So, don't. - unless you are truly practicing a great deal, studying Buddhist or Taoist philosophies for preparing the mind, and working toward true enlightenment.

The word enlightenment is thrown around casually, especially in America, but it is exceedingly difficult to attain, and should not be confused with a general state of raised awareness, or some intermediate level of insight. The practice is very involved and serious, not casual (and I would guess that only a very few laypersons worldwide will achieve true enlightenment within any given 100 year period, especially nowadays).

Qi is supplied from the vessels to the rest of the body.

TERMINOLOGY
As for the terminology between different systems, chakras, energy centers, Qi, prana, etc; there are similarities and differences between them all. But we have to realize this: the body is the body, and the terms we use to define it do not change the truth of its real structure. So, we should be looking to find a 'unified theory' for viewing the physical/energetic body which analyzes the intuition, experience, and wisdom of the various disciplines, with a logical, scientific perspective based in reality. Whatever words and concepts you choose to use to try and define it, the human body is a living electromagnetic field. The energy we are discussing is not a metaphor, or some vague, mystical, new age energy that isn't based in reality. It is bioelectricity.

Ultimately, once we develop a strong feeling, or in other words develop a strong sensation of your Qi circulation in our Qigong practice, it is best to empty the mind of all words, concepts, and attachments, and simply experience it openly

QI CIRCULATORY SYSTEM
Someone mentioned: "Obviously there is no physical channel..." This is not true. We cannot see the acupoints or channels with the physical eye, but they are there, just as we cannot see gravity with the eye, but know that it exists. Because they exist, they are made of matter. All matter can be 'seen' eventually, by some means. We just do not yet have the scientific instrument we require. (However, the acupuncture cavities have been measured and they are more electrically conductive areas on the body.) The Vessels on the other hand we CAN see: the tendons. You might argue with your acupuncturist about this, but if they study the topic carefully, with a logical, scientific mind, it is very plain to see.

So, the governing vessel is the stripe of tendons that goes up your back, outside the spine, and the conception vessel is the stripe of tendons that goes down the front of the body.

Image

If you doubt it, look at the more specific areas, like the exact shape of the Conception Vessel, and of the Belt Vessel: they match the tendons.

Different tissues in the body have different bioelectrical properties, different electric conductivity, and so Qi circulates and accumulates within each differently.

HEADACHES
Often its just too much Qi in the head. Simple as that. Physically, you can lead it out by tapping the head, if the headache isn't that bad. And, mentally, put your mind in the lower energy center, real lower dan tian, or circulate in the fire path, or whatever you feel you need to do to lead qi away from the head.

What yeniseri said is so true - your own experience of different levels of health and various illnesses is the best teacher.

Great discussion everyone, thank you all.

PRACTICE
Practice, practice, practice.

And enjoy your practice!
David Silver
YMAA Assistant Qigong instructor
Last edited by Dvivid on Mon May 01, 2006 11:46 am, edited 4 times in total.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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