White crane concepts/principles and the wing chun system

Discuss shaolin longfist, white crane or other styles. Theory, practice and applications. Please stay on topic.

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Postby zipwolf » Fri Sep 23, 2005 2:07 pm

that is a very true point, the same can be done with taiji though. I feel taiji is more fun myself, just because of how the application of pushing hands works. If i was fast enough to use it properly (at the moment, i am a very sloooow push hander :P and only stationary) i would certainly enjoy the look on my opponents face :P
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:24 pm

Walter, if you read Angry White Pyjamas by Robert Twigger it might change you view of Aikido. Plus I’m sure I have read somewhere that there are more bones broken in Aikido classes than in any other martial art.
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Postby S Ashael » Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:38 pm

shall we say, the end goal is to dissuade them from hurting you either by hurting them more or clearly demonstrating that you could. personally, i don't have a lot of faith in the second way, but to each his own.
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Postby Walter Wong » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:12 am

Oh really Jo. Ok. I'll look up that book.

S Ashael. Yes, the first way you're mentioning is more practical especially if you can't stop the situation from escalating. Just still aiming to be better than that. But yes, if you absolutely must fight, then win.
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Postby yat_chum » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:25 pm

Hi KFF, you might find the answers to your Wing Chun questions at http://wingchunkuen.com/
This site recently crashed and burned but it has now risen from the ashes like a brilliant phoenix. You be able to contact Rene Ritchie at this site one of the authors of Complete Wing Chun.
Last edited by yat_chum on Sun Oct 02, 2005 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby kung fu fighter » Sun Oct 02, 2005 4:44 pm

Thanks everyone,

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Postby Blarg » Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:42 am

Walter Wong wrote:Not that I trained Wing Chun, but just from observation, Wing Chun appears stiffer and more tensed than Master Yang's Ancestral style White Crane. I could be wrong. My impression is also since Wing Chun is from White Crane, Wing Chun seems like a White Crane style that cut some corners to get fighting abilities right away.
.


Wing chun has crane in it, but also has a lot of snake. I don't know anything about crane really, but the bong sau and fook sau of wing chun are crane, and so is I think the heung sau(think I remembered the name and spelling okay, it's been a while) , a sort of bong sau like pressure/controlling movement using the forearm to stifle the opponent's arm inward toward his body and mess with his balance.
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Postby Jim Roselando » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:21 am

Hello Walter,


Not that I trained Wing Chun, but just from observation, Wing Chun appears stiffer and more tensed than Master Yang's Ancestral style White Crane. I could be wrong.

It depends on the Wing Chun art and training that goes along with it. Most of todays Wing Chun does not focus on any Noi Gong/Zheng Chi. Because of this the art tends to be harder. Modern WC does tend to teach external relaxation but unless the insides/breathing have gone thru a cultivation process it cannot achieve Rou Jing or Gong Jing or any jing really.

My impression is also since Wing Chun is from White Crane, Wing Chun seems like a White Crane style that cut some corners to get fighting abilities right away

Not really IMO. Actually! I think White Crane is easier to learn than Wing Chun. Its always easier to get harder power versus soft as to achieve soft power one needs to invest in loss for a longer period of time. Also, the tri-post horse of San Chin is much easier to root/base versus the dynamic equilibrium horse of YJKYM.


Wing Chun more likely stems from the mother system of White Crane (White Crane Weng Chun) of Fukien. Fang Chi Niang was had a nickname that included plum flower in it as she was famous for her stepping! The Wing Chun art is Basically Soft Crane. This may bother some people but since the Snake Body of Wing Chun is not popular these days it would probally be better for Wing Chun guys to use the San Chin tri-post horse versus YJKYM to support the body. YJKYM is a dynamic equilibrium horse and not the bolted or rooted horse it has become. So, a harder power horse can support a harder power method better than a softer power horse being supported by a harder power method. Just my opinion.

Biu Jee and other stuff has nothign to do with Snake IMO. Many many arts have and use the term Biu Jee. Including South Mantis etc.. The Snake is the Emei Rou Body that was blended by Miao Shun with the Crane to create: the Art Of Siu Lin Tau!

Siu Lin Tau is the Training of the Essential "small" Details.

Inner Alchemy of the ultra details of the mind/body/breath rou methods.

Miao Shun Emei Shi Er Zhuang = Snake

Fang Chi Niangs Bak Hok Weng Chun = Crane

Snake + Crane = Mioa Shun art or SLT!

The name Wing Chun did not come around till later.

Wing = Praise or Chant

Chun = Spring, Nature (one of the 4 seasons)

Wing Chun = Praise the Nature Boxing!

It is as soft as an art can possibly be. White Crane tends not to follow this sort of total Rou Jing approach. Arts like Yi Chuan, Taiji etc. are much more similar to Wing Chun in terms of internal alchemy than White Crane is.

White Crane has a famous signature:

Chuen Ging Jeet Lak-Inch Force Exerted From The Joints

Wing Chun has a famous signature:

Keng or Chuk Ging-Speedy Shock Force via the 3 Gates!


Peace,

Jim
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Postby kung fu fighter » Thu May 04, 2006 12:49 pm

Can someone explain the fujian white crane principle of going to the forth door? what it is and how to use it during a fight?
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Southern systems

Postby wuzu » Tue May 30, 2006 4:32 pm

All the southern systems seem to have strong white crane elements in them. My master's system of Wuzuquan is heavily influenced by it. Therefore there are many overlapping concepts among these styles.
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wing chun is derived from crane

Postby CraneTiger » Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:58 pm

Not trying to offend anyone but it was my understanding that a girl with no previus experience in martial arts had issued a challenge to a man and to prepare, went to train with a Fukien Crane master for two weeks(some versions say a year) and so was taught the basics of the art that would be appropriet for a girl to use against a larger,stronger opponent(thats why the sensitivity drills are emphasized in Wing Chun).

Just my understanding,
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Postby Blarg » Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:09 am

Jim, the biu jee is an extremely snake-like movement. I think it stretches credulity to not see the snake in biu jee.
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Postby YangShi » Thu May 06, 2010 9:53 pm

Wing Chun uses Crane footwork with Snake upper body theory, but only at the "deflection" combat range. There is a lot of crossover between snake and crane due to the natural progression of the systems. But the fundamental difference is the way in which each system treats force or power. The snake seeks contact at all times to inject and envelop the opponent. Wing Chun does not do this, and Crane seeks a bridge to deliver strikes. If you look at the White Crane Jin under Master Yang's Ancestral/Sleeping Crane the power manifested from Jin is about force per square inch, or penetration. Which to me is more about flight paths (I'm still a novice with Master Yang's Baihequan).

Snake Concepts

Structure (and unstructure)
Moment of Timing/Tempo
Spatial Line (centreline, spatial line, vital point, strongpoint)
Intention
Sensitivity

Wing Chun, like snake, actually straddles the spatial line to creation spatial tension to get better sensitivity of the centreline. The snake is all about sensitivity, contact, injection and envelopment. Wing Chun has aspects of this, but it is more like crane due to its striking nature rather than envelopment. Its footwork inhibits it from being circular, instead its about angles and straight line attack, which the snake is not.
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Postby kung fu fighter » Thu May 06, 2010 11:07 pm

YangShi wrote:Wing Chun uses Crane footwork with Snake upper body theory, but only at the "deflection" combat range.


What kind of stepping patterns are there in the white crane bagua stepping strategy?
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Postby YangShi » Fri May 07, 2010 7:48 am

What I was meaning was that it uses Crane footwork (or at least the theory behind it) and uses Snake upper body "deflection" range techniques. Ie - that it meets and deflects the opponents force at the spatial vital point (imagine a line between your solar plexus and your opponent's (spatial line), the "balance point" between the two solar plexus is the spatial vital point).

Wing Chun straddles the spatial line to create a feeling or sensitivity for the space and the centreline, just like the snake. However, where the snake circles, Wing Chun practitioners do not. The instead use the footwork to create angles to the opponent like the crane.

I have thoroughly read Master Yang's "Essence of White Crane" book, and other material I have found. Although I know Snake, I am only giving my opinions around Crane and its footwork theory. Correct me if you know better :)
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Postby kung fu fighter » Fri May 07, 2010 8:27 am

YangShi wrote:Wing Chun straddles the spatial line to create a feeling or sensitivity for the space and the centreline, just like the snake. However, where the snake circles, Wing Chun practitioners do not. The instead use the footwork to create angles to the opponent like the crane.


Wing chun uses both the snake circling the spatial line to envelop the opponent, as well as crane angular footwork to evade. It just depends on the individual linage, for example Yip Man linage does not have alot of emphasisis on the snake circling element.
But I believe styles such as yuen kay san and his brother Yuen Chi Wan's linages does.

here are a couple of clips with the snake circling idea:
starting at 0:40 into this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLJ2ZIAoN6Q

as well as in this clip especially at 2:22 into the scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncjInEVp ... re=related

Based on your understanding, what exactly is the crane footwork stepping patterns and theory in regards to wing chun?
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Postby Josh Young » Thu May 13, 2010 10:18 am

Wing chun is a modern version of white crane that evolved over time into a distinct art...that is the most strongly supported theory of its origin.

Snake and Crane are traditional pairs, this is why there is the allegory of the fight between them and the birth of internal arts stemming from the observation of the fight. They can compliment and counter one another, Wing Chun drills tend to be putting this to practice, however their combination appears to predate Wing Chuns emergence as a separate and distinct system from White Crane.
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Re:

Postby kung fu fighter » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:10 am

David Grantham wrote:As far as the stepping strategies, well at the last seminar, Master Yang actually started talking about it. He said there is actually a chart out there with a code for actual strategies but he doesn't know where it is, partially because it is supposed to be one of those secrets not to be released to the outside world. If anyone else knows of the bagua stepping charts out there I would love to know. Even More important, Master Yang would love to have it for translation.


Hi David,

here is the white crane bagua chart, do you have any additional insights on the code for actual stepping strategies.

http://whitelionkungfu.files.wordpre...can3-copy1.jpg

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/559/dlzq.jpg
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Re: Re:

Postby John the Monkey mind » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:33 am

kung fu fighter wrote:
David Grantham wrote:As far as the stepping strategies, well at the last seminar, Master Yang actually started talking about it. He said there is actually a chart out there with a code for actual strategies but he doesn't know where it is, partially because it is supposed to be one of those secrets not to be released to the outside world. If anyone else knows of the bagua stepping charts out there I would love to know. Even More important, Master Yang would love to have it for translation.


Hi David,

here is the white crane bagua chart, do you have any additional insights on the code for actual stepping strategies.

http://whitelionkungfu.files.wordpre...can3-copy1.jpg

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/559/dlzq.jpg


The square stepping bagua charts are also in the White cranes and Drunken masters book both the "Shen Tien Pa Gua" (Yin Yang movement) and the "Ho Tien Pa Gua" (Zig-zag movement).

http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Cranes-Dr ... nd+Drunken
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Re: White crane concepts/principles and the wing chun system

Postby yeniseri » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:01 pm

Interestingly, one of my first taijiquan teacher was a WIng Chun adept but I preferred taijiquan.
I have found that Southern CMA is more functional than what is classified as Northern changquan. :mrgreen:
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