Songshan,ChangQuan

[SliqueRICK]

For those of you who dont know the difference between Songshan(Shaolin Temple style) and ChangQuan(long fist) here is a lesson
Song shan style was recreated by the chinese government the bulk of it is wushu ChangQuan left the temple early on and had alot of development on its own and since it left the temple is still real gong fu now compare.

Songshan


ChangQuan


Songshan


ChangQuan



So in actuality shaolin temple gong fu is dead but styles derived from shaolin are still alive maybe now you get it DOM.

[Walter Wong]

Actually Rick, this pic is our Master Yang practicing White Crane and not Chang Chuan. This is a young Master Yang training with his uncle.


These 2 pics below more accurately shows Master Yang in his younger years training Chang Chuan.



Rick, I hope you and DOM will get along eventually. I know DOM personally and he's a good guy with much to offer himself. He trains some no nonsense classical Karate and trains YMAA martial arts with David Grantham who used to train alot with us for years back here in Boston. DOM also makes the occassional trips up from New Jersey to Boston to take Master Yang seminars here at our school and sometimes trains in some of our regular scheduled Shaolin classes with us.

I only know you through messege boards Rick and you seem like an alright guy. DOM is too only I know him in person. So I hope you guys will have your differences settled and make peace.

[SliqueRICK]

My mistake looks like a ChangQuan posture what style of white crane do you do most i have seen has a narrower stance.

[scramasax57]

hahaha, you sure taught us a lesson there.

[SliqueRICK]

White crane still spplies as it is a shaolin darivative and not shaolin itself. The point is todays shjaolin is just wushu while the shaolin derived styles are still alive and well.

[Walter Wong]

My mistake looks like a ChangQuan posture what style of white crane do you do most i have seen has a narrower stance.

In reality, when a Chinese style is put into application and usage, all Chinese styles look very similar. In the end, differences between styles are not so black and white.

Yes, *generally*, our southern Crane do have shorter smaller stances than Long Fist. Techniques and power is executed differently *in* training. In actual usage and fighting, there's only so much a human body can do. A style is nothing more than a path to get to the same place as the other styles are going. In the end, we all walk the same way.

[scramasax57]

very well put walter. i've thought the same thing many times, seeing similarities in arts as diverse as boxing, kung fu, tae kwon do, and vale tudo. when it comes down to actual fighting, everyone has their own personal approach, but the natural laws and principles of hand combat apply to everyone the same way.

[BaguaMonk]

I don't know much of the details of the burning. But sometimes I wonder if the Chinese government, kept, and hid many shaolin documents manuscripts from the burning/invasion. Hence the recreation? Really, some of the less acrobat/wushufied forms and movements are quite fundamental and really do promote the flow of the body in various ways, similar to yoga, by doing streneous excercises (extreme i nsome cases) etc.

[SliqueRICK]

I have only seen one form that i think is the original and that is Xin Yi Ba it was taught to the monks by XinYi founder Ji Long Feng i have a link i will post so you guys can see some.
http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb ... 1114876717

[Walter Wong]

I don't know much of the details of the burning. But sometimes I wonder if the Chinese government, kept, and hid many shaolin documents manuscripts from the burning/invasion. Hence the recreation?

That's an interesting thought. I never thought of that possibility. I wonder. Perhaps the Chinese government took all their documents before burning down the temple.

[Tosh]

I don't know much about what happened to the documents in Shaolin, but my mom is a history teacher, het sister is a communist (I'm from Europe ) my mom has a pretty neutral look against communisme. She told me that it totally depended on the people that were in charge in the specific area, China was so big that it was impossible to be controlled by one goverment. The problem with the people was that most people were either afraid or wanted to get credit so they would betray each other (this is basicly how china ws controlled).
So i thnik it's impossible to say if the goverment had a certain policy of the things they destroyed.
Looking at the fact that shaolin is an area that has one of the oldest martial arts history. There could be a big chance that the people were loyal during the cultural revolution, and would protect each other. So there might be a chance some documents survived. I do know that they practice advance qi gong in de shaolin temple, they also learn the applications of the postures.

PS I hope you guys can understand my english

[SliqueRICK]

As far as im aware some documents survived it was a combination of the surviving documents and performance wushu wich forms the bulk of shaolin.

[BaguaMonk]

Shaolin kung fu is no longer a threat to the government, so releasing, and teaching/allowing monks this information seems plausible. Most of the guards, emperors, etc. practiced kung fu in some way or another, so I would think they would at least attain these documents/teachings and claim some of them as their own.

[Tosh]

I'm just wondering what happened to wudan during the cultural revolutions.
I heard people say that there isn't much left of wudan and it pretty much is a place for tourist nowadays (though a lot of foreigners seem to go to wudang to study).

[SliqueRICK]

There is a school on wudang now dont know about the authenticity of the gong fu though looks good but i have only seen stills.

[Lee_Siao_Long]

Ni Hao ren-ren.
I would just like to say that I don't agree with the view that the Kung Fu practiced at Shao-Lin Temple in Henan is not 'alive'. From personal experience I can confirm that the Soldier monks are able to use their Kung Fu to spar.
Have you ever seen any Kung Fu tournaments? It is a shame that people are able to perform forms or set sparring beautifully, but when they come to spar they can't use the Kung Fu techniques they've learned to defend themselves. On the contrary, they suddenly use Tae Kwon Do kicks or Karate punches, or just fight like children. Another example is when one conciders Tai Chi Push Hands - One is not supposed to use any physical force, but yet almost all competitors do this.
Maybe one should not judge the authenticity of the Kung Fu, but rather the way it is used in sparing situations. And at Shao Lin they use Kung Fu techniques to spar.
[This view is not only shared by myself but also by many others including Sifu Wong, Kiew Kit (who also studied in the traditional Shao-Lin way)]

[5AnimalTom]

Ni Hao ren-ren.
Another example is when one considers Tai Chi Push Hands - One is not supposed to use any physical force, but yet almost all competitors do this.

There are people who win push hands competitions with force? Where exactly are these competitions? I could use whatever prize money might be involved. (Or the earnings from the melted trophy.)


Also, to stay on topic, I believe Shaolin to very much be alive, though I'm unsure if it's still alive at the temple, having never met anyone claiming to be from there, nore going myself. All I know is that I've seen Shaolin's 5 Animals used, with great effect, by a man who's about as physically imposing as the elderly greeters at Walmart. Shaolin's still in existance. It just decided to go and see the world.

[Lee_Siao_Long]

Ni Hao ren-ren,
Just to comment on the reply above, I didn't quite say that people who take part in Tai Chi Push hands win. I wouldn't want them to win, as that would be an insult to the style.

The tournaments I mention are either ones in China (national) or international. A place to try and find recordings of them is on Martial Arts Mart.com
Have a look...
Dzai-jien