Reincarnation & related topics.

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Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Dvivid » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:30 pm

Hi!

My name is David (currently), and after many years of researching the subject, I believe in reincarnation. How about you?

Buddhist & Daoist traditions discuss reincarnation in great detail, and our own YMAA Qigong studies pertain to the concept of the energy body and its existence outside of the human body. There are a great many resources one can cross-reference to form an idea on this subject, if you're interested. Are you?

I trained for a period in astral projection, and also have had an out of body experience quite by accident, both accompanied by a heightened consciousness, so I have some small, relatable experience prior to my qigong study.

*Edit: I should also mention that I started as an atheist, with no religious history, and have spent a great deal of time thinking about this subject from a very young age due to my proximity to multiple deaths within my family. I was an odd kid, reading the existentialists rather than partying, and exploring consciousness with meditation instead of normal teenage activities.*

Buddha told the story that during the process of his enlightenment, he remembered each and every one of his past lives, back through thousands of years of human lives, and even back to the lives of several animals before he was human. And, I've come to believe that the Buddha dharma does not lie. What do you think?

It is especially common for children before the age of 5 or 6 to remember their past lives. After that age, the memories tend to fade entirely. In fact, the Tibetan tradition of finding reincarnated tulkus, the panchen lama, and dalai lama all rely upon this fact!

I am keeping my mind open on this topic, and am interested to learn more.

Here, I give you, example #1 to cross reference from American culture:
http://youtu.be/Uk7biSOzr1k
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Dvivid » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:10 pm

And this great overview of the Tibetan tradition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6m-UL93nXA
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Dvivid » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:41 pm

The large amount of information on the topic of near death experiences also correlates with this concept. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWf8V1PXN-k
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Dvivid » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:29 pm

Details in this long (and boring) video about how reincarnation was banned in Christianity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAU5zN8N ... njclvP6CDK
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby sub_human » Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:21 pm

Dvivid wrote:Hi!

My name is David (currently), and after many years of researching the subject, I believe in reincarnation. How about you?

Buddhist & Daoist traditions discuss reincarnation in great detail, and our own YMAA Qigong studies pertain to the concept of the energy body and its existence outside of the human body. There are a great many resources one can cross-reference to form an idea on this subject, if you're interested. Are you?

I trained for a period in astral projection, and also have had an out of body experience quite by accident, both accompanied by a heightened consciousness, so I have some small, relatable experience prior to my qigong study.

*Edit: I should also mention that I started as an atheist, with no religious history, and have spent a great deal of time thinking about this subject from a very young age due to my proximity to multiple deaths within my family. I was an odd kid, reading the existentialists rather than partying, and exploring consciousness with meditation instead of normal teenage activities.*

Buddha told the story that during the process of his enlightenment, he remembered each and every one of his past lives, back through thousands of years of human lives, and even back to the lives of several animals before he was human. And, I've come to believe that the Buddha dharma does not lie. What do you think?

It is especially common for children before the age of 5 or 6 to remember their past lives. After that age, the memories tend to fade entirely. In fact, the Tibetan tradition of finding reincarnated tulkus, the panchen lama, and dalai lama all rely upon this fact!

I am keeping my mind open on this topic, and am interested to learn more.

Here, I give you, example #1 to cross reference from American culture:
http://youtu.be/Uk7biSOzr1k



You are on the right path.

Though, each breath... each.. can be from an era.
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Sunflower » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:48 pm

Not saying reincarnation it's true or not but, in case it does, what do you think about it pre-earth and post-earth times?
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby joeblast » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:35 pm

lol, what about it? the earth isnt the only habitable place in the cosmos 8)
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Dvivid » Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:27 pm

2,500 years ago, when we thought the world was flat, Buddha talked about lives across billions of world systems. Its not about "Earth".
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Vuk » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:58 am

Well, although it still might be a joke played by my subconscious, I had a few experiences related to previous lives. It's funny that they were always related to China, although I am European, Serbian to be exact.

In one of these, I was an old Chinese man, tall, wearing a suit, about 80 years old but with a straight back. I was in a middle of a forest, with a lady, and there was something invisible calling me to it. I reached some sort of energy spring and it spoke to me telling me that it's the source of all my lives, and it gave me an advice about what should I do to avoid being reborn. I won't be telling you what the advice was but I can tell you that it was not a dream. But who knows, perhaps it was a subtle joke played by my subconscious, a strange lucid dream.

In an older dream I was again a Chinese guy, dressed as a Daoist priest, and I was fighting against a group of shadow-like spirits. I was writing spells on paper stripes and throwing them at them.

I know that many emotionally immature people start discovering Qigong hoping that they will find some sort of power or experiences that will make them feel special. From my experience, this is the most dangerous approach to this science, and it may lead to a completely opposite direction. Aware of how fascinating these drams/visions may sound, I shared them hoping that mature and truthful people may find something useful in them.
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Dvivid » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:45 am

I have meditated for a long time, and trained lucid dreaming for a while, and believe you should trust in experience like these. Thanks for sharing.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Villicus » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:01 pm

Dvivid wrote:Details in this long (and boring) video about how reincarnation was banned in Christianity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAU5zN8N ... njclvP6CDK


I would be highly doubtful of this video as no emperor ever told a pope what to do when it came to Church teaching.
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Dvivid » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:44 am

No offense, but if you read history as written by actual historians, you'll find that the church has been influenced heavily by several governments. In fact, the bible has been revised many times by them, and certain content edited out on several occasions. Ever notice it is called the "King James" bible currently?

Keep your mind open if you are seeking truth. Its a long windy road, and not as black and white as one would hope.
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Villicus » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:56 pm

No offense taken David. I only deal with objective truth from reliable historians when doing research. Religions of the world is a topic that I am very familiar with. I am college educated with many hours spent in philosophy of religion courses as well as metaphysics.

The Catholic Church in particular has never been influenced by any govt. or leader into changing any of its' teachings. There is simply no historical evidence to show this. There are many common myths as to how this church has been portrayed in history, but most are false and unfortunately are repeated ad nauseam to the detriment of those who are honestly trying to discover the truth. For example, the Galileo affair is still not portrayed accurately or understood by most people. Neither is the topic of the Inquisition. My ancestors were sought by the Inquisition and I am very familiar with its' history also.

There is a great amount of prejudice today in historical research. Political correctness has infected and corrupted legitimate research in many fields to the point that an uneducated person would likely be inclined to believe the popular myths rather than do the hard work of meticulous research that is required to arrive at the truth. Historical truth is objective. It is black or white. There is no gray area in this.

In regards to the different versions of the Bible that you mentioned it is important that there be a common definition of terms so that a proper understanding can be reached. There are many different translations of the Bible. The only difference in content is between the Catholic and Protestant versions. Martin Luther edited out several books in the bible that did not agree with his agenda. Other than that all the versions say the same thing.The difference is in the translation. The King James Bible uses old English text which is very inspirational and a fine work of literature. Others use modern language for easier understanding. They all say the same thing. The most reliable translation is the Latin Vulgate which is the original that was translated from original texts available from the time of Jesus.
All that being said, reincarnation has never been a part of Christian teaching in any denomination or period of history, so it never had to be banned by anyone.
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby joeblast » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:06 pm

hahaha what about the book of judas; anna, grandmother of jesus; jesus' childhood that you hear next to nothing of...

yes, we cant have any questions about him being a direct manifestation of god now can we 8)

dogma dogma dogma....that's why I cant stomach ANY of the world's religions.
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Villicus » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:08 pm

I don't think either David or myself were being religious. I simply pointed out the fact that reincarnation was never part of Christianity. Please don't derail this thread with bias as this is not what it is for. Nothing wrong with an honest discussion of this interesting topic. We could all learn a lot here :wink:
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Dvivid » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:45 am

Villicus, Im sure you're well versed and you seem enthusiastic about the topic. I don't respond well to dogma either.

First, as far as translations of biblical texts go, I much prefer the older Babylonian cuneform clay tablet versions of these same stories. It tells a much longer, richer story of our history. These original texts have been re-edited, shaped with different interpretations, and pared down over the centuries.

For instance, the Book of Enoch and other chapters from the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Im not affected by political correctness. I'm sorry to disagree, but I think its an important topic to be clear on. Part of the problem is in our understanding of the texts - in my opinion it is clearly stated in the current bible as well, we just are not thinking it through in our translation. Through the lens of reincarnation (and karma), many seeming contradictions suddenly make sense. It is a common fact that reincarnation is a part of almost all religions, and the fact that it is missing today from Christianity IMO is likely a large part of the problem mankind's current insanity on Earth. The body/mind/soul is one, no matter your race or location, and all the theistic religions fail to explain it clearly, for me.

Im not sure if you're disagreeing because reincarnation isn't blatant in the bible, or if the concept of reincarnation rattles your religious proclivities, but again, we need to keep an open mind and accept the facts as they are, not as we want them to be. In fact, reincarnation does not conflict in any way with any religion at heart, it confirms faith; it conflicts only with modern dogma.

If we're all truthseekers, then we're on the same team. Let's share info to arrive at a better understanding of life (and death) in general.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, Origen (C.E. 185-254) was the most prominent, most distinguished and most influential of the early church fathers. He was the most prolific writer and theologian of early Christianity with works numbering around 6,000. St. Jerome asks, "Which of us can read all that he has written?" It is important to understand that Origen's story, is not about the trials and tribulations of an obscure backwoods rogue theologian. How such an important and prominent luminary receded into the blackness of obscurity is a fascinating story and underscores the ego's perennial effort to have its own way.
(http://reincarnation.ws/reincarnation_i ... anity.html)

"A prominent theologian named Origen wrote around 250 AD about the pre-existence of the soul. He taught that the soul’s very source was God and that the soul was traveling back to oneness with God via the lessons learned in multiple lives. He taught that Christ came to show us what we can become. For centuries this was the mainstream view of Christianity but 300 years later it became a huge issue and the belief was made illegal because Emperor Constantine believed it was dangerous to the Empire to believe in reincarnation.

In the sixth century A.D., Emperor Justinian and Pope Vigilius disagreed on whether or not the teachings of Origen should be condemned as heresy. The Pope supported the teaching as being consistent with the teachings of Jesus the Messiah. The Emperor was determined to eradicate the belief even though the Pope and the church believed in reincarnation. The fact that the doctrine of reincarnation had been a part of Christian theology for over 500 years did not sway the Emperor.

Origen's writings were considered heresy by important cardinals in the sixth century. Origen's teachings had been considered as profound spiritual wisdom for three centuries. Origen lived around 250 AD and wrote about the pre-existence of the soul and in reincarnation. He taught that the soul’s very source was God and that the soul’s was traveling back to oneness with God via Reincarnation.

Emperor Justinian wanted Origen’s writings and teachings to be condemned and destroyed but Pope Vigilius refused to sign a papal decree condemning Origen's teachings on reincarnation. As a result of his disobedience, the Emperor had the Pope arrested and put into jail. In 543, Justinian convoked the Fifth General Council of the Church and told the Pope he would sign whatever into doctrine whatever the council decided. On the way there, under guard, the Pope escaped to avoid being forced to condemn Origen’s writings. The Emperor commanded the council to continue despite the Pope’s refusal to attend.

There was a logical reason why the Emperor was opposed to the concept that all of mankind originally came from God and was returing to God via the cycle of birth and death. Justinian had been convinced by high ranking cardinals that it was not in the interest of the empire to allow Origen's writings to continue to be copied and distributed. A powerful group of Cardinal’s and Bishop’s explained that if every soul had once pre-existed with God, then Christ wasn’t anything special to have come from God. These Cardinals convinced the Emperor that if people realized they were the children of God they might begin to believe they no longer needed an Emperor, or to pay taxes, or to obey the Holy Church. But since they reasoned that only Christ had come from God but God made brand new souls at the time of conception and only the Holy Church could bring these souls to God. Without the protection of the Empire or the guidance of the church, all people would be doomed to be forever cut off from God in Hell. This doctrine was very acceptable to the Emperor. Once Justinian understood the political danger inherent in Origen’s teachings, the rest was simply an Emperor doing what was in his best interest.

The council, as instructed by the Emperor, produced fourteen new anathemas and the very first one condemned reincarnation and the concept that souls pre-existed with God.

"If anyone asserts the fabulous preexistence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema."

Even though these events are in the history books, modern Christianity treats the doctrine of reincarnation today as if Jesus never taught it or that the early church ever believed it."
- http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarn ... ws9-27.htm

Also recommend: http://www.amazon.com/Reincarnation-The ... 0922729271
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby joeblast » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:16 am

spot on, D. dogma exists in an attempt to establish supremacy, moral or otherwise, and powerlust afflicts church leaders just as it afflicts government officials, executive boards, wherever some people establish power and authority it is their natural tendency to solidify, enhance, and promulgate it. since the arising of these perverted ideas became popular in the church, it simply winds up being that any little thing that might possibly call into question the entire virgin birth or jesus being directly son of god....or, god forbid, just as he said, we can all be like him...

...well, that doesnt bode so well for the church as the absolute authority...

and the dogma is spread unquestioningly.
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Dvivid » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:41 am

Either way: rather than get bogged down in the topic of Christianity, lets stick to the topic at hand, which transcends our belief systems (or reality tunnels, as R.A. Wilson calls them).

Another documentary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mKGdK_JCcU
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby Villicus » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:32 pm

We are not bogged down in the topic of Christianity, but rather trying to establish whether reincarnation was part of Christianity in the early days. You mentioned Origen as being a proponent of reincarnation. Did you know that he wrote extensively against it? His argument for the pre existence of the soul has nothing to do with reincarnation. His commentaries on John and Matthew specifically mention reincarnation as a fallacy. He is very specific and emphatic in his writings. The works of Origen have always been available to any one who wishes to read them. They have never been hidden or suppressed. Please not that I am not arguing against the reality of reincarnation, only the modern myth that it was part of Christianity.

The website you linked from has very little in it that is historically factual. Like much of New Age writings it relies on the readers subjective feelings and leanings which suspends rational thought long enough to tantalize the mind with pseudo history using events that sometimes occurred and filling it in with fabricated details leading to illogical and false conclusions. Here is a quote from Origen from his commentary on Matthew regarding reincarnation:

"If the doctrine [of reincarnation] was widely current, ought not John to have hesitated to pronounce upon it, lest his soul had actually been in Elijah? And here our churchman will appeal to history, and will bid his antagonists [to] ask experts of the secret doctrines of the Hebrews if they do really entertain such a belief. For if it should appear that they do not, then the argument based on that supposition is shown to be quite baseless"


That is only one of many that Origen wrote against reincarnation. Justinian did not put any pope in jail. His argument with Vigilius was over the nature of the trinity. That is it. Reincarnation was no where in any historical record as having precipitated these events. Justinian did in fact summon Vigilius to Constantinople where he stayed for eight years, but he did not have to go if he didn't want to and he wasn't imprisoned.
My disagreement is solely on these historical events. There is no 'version' of history here. These events have been well documented from many sources and have been extensively written about.

Dogma is nothing more than a logical conclusion based on established truth. Even science has dogma. It is not exclusive to the world religions. It is not a tool or something to control or dominate. That is just another modern myth used to prevent free thought. You wrote:
First, as far as translations of biblical texts go, I much prefer the older Babylonian cuneform clay tablet versions of these same stories. It tells a much longer, richer story of our history. These original texts have been re-edited, shaped with different interpretations, and pared down over the centuries.


All of these ancient writings did not come from one source. Their similarity comes from events of such a huge magnitude that they were all affected by them. The flood for example which was a historical event. There has been no paring down over the centuries. The Dead Sea Scrolls proved that in the Judeo-Christian tradition and in the eastern religions most of the ancient writings that have been found are pretty consistent also.

Again, I am not arguing against reincarnation from any preconceived notion or bias. It does not threaten my beliefs in any way and I have always found the topic fascinating, but regarding historical events, the truth can easily be found with a little work and I think it is important not to start out with any misconceptions that will lead to future erroneous conclusions.
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Re: Reincarnation & related topics.

Postby John the Monkey mind » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:54 am

I must agree that a lot of the new age groups happily twist history or out right lie to push their agendas. Mostly they are just putting new spines on the work of people like Aleister Crowley and Helena Blavatsky and/or swapping supernatural for aliens and or evolution of cognition (the core elements and mechanics are often recognizable as Crowley or Blavatsky).

Satanism (Luciferianism with the left hand path and Lucifer portrayed as the light bringer and like Prometheus) remixed and repackaged? A bit more complex perhaps but the idea of repressed truths is an old one. The quota from Origen proves people were obsessive over secret doctrines even back then. Given the origin of the New Age movement it is clear that it is often hostile towards Christianity and seeks to undermine it by saying they know the truth of it

Image
(Jesus as the ascended master not God springs to mind). I would not trust such sources for accurate information on Christianity.

I studied the Emperor Justinian at university and must agree reincarnation was not the issues being thrown around at the time.
As for secret doctrines by all means read up on them but remember every writer has their own angle and most can not prove their secret sources or hidden master etc. I read a lot of stuff and a lot of metaphysics that has been put out is interesting and useful but even if a source is telling you something true in one instance they may still mislead on another. Discernment is the key word.
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