Qigong and diabet melitus

Discuss Qigong, its ideas, theories and practice. Please stay on topic.

Moderators: Dvivid, Inga, nyang

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:22 pm

Monsoon wrote:Actually I am a bit guilty of over simplifying and thus misinforming myself!

The liver releases a hormone called glucogon, which stimulates the release of glucose stores into the blood. The liver does its job perfectly, it's just that for diabetics we cannot cope with this response as well as we should. Not the liver's fault!

Either way, diet is the critical factor, not exercise. Although exercise is complimentary and should be done.

The key message is: Get that diet sorted out!

Do we concur?


Oh yeah. You don't sort out your diet, it's over(so to speak).
pete5770
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:16 pm

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby yeniseri » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:16 pm

Excellent point, Monsoon

The liver converts protein and FFA into glucose through gluconeogenesis!
Increased physical activity fine tunes the 'fuel burn' and the long term benefit allows the bad effects of NIDDM to decrease Personally qigong as monotherapy would be insufficient to ameliorate the evenst but aerobic long term exercise+qigong woud have a greater effect.
By aerobic, I do not necessary mean running but it is one part.
metabolic syndrome X >>>obesity>>>cardiovascular disease>>>NIDDM>>>renal insufficiency..etc is bad enough so when we diminish as much of the causative factors we change the face..starting with metabolic syndrome x usually starting with big belly syndrome.....
yeniseri
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:18 pm
Location: USA

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Monsoon » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:01 am

Absolutely agree with you there yeniseri.

A multifaceted approach is very much the way to go. Although within that approach there are preferable routes... diet change being the most important one to start with.

Good luck to all those who are embarking on this. Persistence is the key to success.

Oh, and one related point. I am of the opinion, despite my personal success, that the condition is not curable at this time, although it seems possible for particular sections of the diabetic community to rollback the severity of their condition.
Last edited by Monsoon on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby joeblast » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:01 pm

pete5770 wrote:
joeblast wrote:Pete, its beyond me why you bother visiting this forum if you take every opportunity to bash chi gung, tcm, eastern medicine, etc. Every issue has its solution, every context has appropriate treatments. So you're trying to assert that doing things to help motivate fluids will not help in any way, shape, or form? C'mon dude, open your eyes at least a peek.


Fine. When or if you become diabetic you may go right ahead and cure it however you see fit.
I'm positive that after you start to experience the many, many complications of this disease like starting to go blind, needing things cut off your body, high blood pressure, possible strokes, and the list goes on, that you WILL be listening to the person you should have been listening to in the first place. A real doctor.

I'm not bashing anything, I'm screaming at a person whom I think will do the wrong things and not lose weight, not listen to his doctor, not watch his diet, not do vigorous exercise. Instead I believe he will go to a health food store, have someone stick needles in him, and do Qigong. All of it wrong. I sincerely hope he proves ME wrong and does the right thing.

Look man, I know this is personal to you, but that doesnt mean you should state some things and then go off on a tangent saying qigong, tcm, etc will be utterly useless and of no help whatsoever. Every single one of us in this thread has stressed the importance of proper diet, myself included, as the first and primary focus in this issue.

You just cant help yourself, you always have to toss in there on an issue where *only* doing qigong would not really be any sort of cure, that it is absolutely a useless waste of time to even bother doing at all. So you put in a bit of good information, then follow it up with some pure hogwash.

We already know you dont believe in qi, that's fine - your beliefs will not change reality. But dont get all stand offish when you're called out on a poor and incorrect comment like that. You dont think doing stretches that stretch out the tendons of the internal organs would be of any help whatsoever, the breathwork, nah, that's just not going to help you at all, not when it helps motivate fluids and prime the internal organs.

Ever seen a bee breathe? Bees have no circulatory system and their "blood" is called a hemolymph - so they basically perform the entirety of their circulatory functions from breathing alone. Translate to embryonic breathing - translate to the freshness of fluids and blood (or lack thereof) being the main contributor towards the organs growing old and damaged...

Who's out-there? :P


pete5770 wrote:I have tpye 2. My advice. Take the pills(Januvea, etc.), lose weight, exercise vigously, check your blood sugar daily, take a diabetes course at your local hospital(if they offer it), eat low glycemic index foods, listen to your Doctor. Ignore this and you run terrible risks of all kinds of complications from this disease. Do what works, and to be honest the above things listed work.
Don't get involved in thinking that so called eastern medicine, accupuncture, or Qigong will help you. See a Medical Doctor and DO, repeat DO what he says. You are not dealing with an ache or pain here or there. This can be deadly serious.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
joeblast
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: CT

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby pete5770 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:13 pm

I understand that you believe in something that I don't and that's just fine with me. My whole concern on this post is that the OP will, for some reason, decide that the way to go with his diabetes is Qigong and accupunture and ignore completely the hard work involved in getting your diet straight and losing the weight. Please note that the OP NEVER mentioned diet, never said whether or not he was seeing a medical Doctor, did not talk about any concern about weight loss.
Now I ask you, if he puts all his efforts into Qigong and accupunture do you believe this will have any real effect on his diabetic state? He needs to do what WILL work and not rely on some "easy" cure by doing some stretching, breathing, and having someone stick needles in him. If it was that easy there wouldn't be anyone with diabetes.
pete5770
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:16 pm

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Dvivid » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:19 am

The general concensus reply to the poster with Diabetes 2 is "change your diet", as per the article I posted in response. Beyond that, "exercise" - which qigong is only a part of.

Blindly assuming qigong or acupuncture can heal you without making diet changes and significant physical effort is unrealistic, and anyone who frequents this forum should understand that clearly.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1722
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby pete5770 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:00 am

Dvivid wrote:The general concensus reply to the poster with Diabetes 2 is "change your diet", as per the article I posted in response. Beyond that, "exercise" - which qigong is only a part of.

Blindly assuming qigong or acupuncture can heal you without making diet changes and significant physical effort is unrealistic, and anyone who frequents this forum should understand that clearly.


+1
pete5770
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:16 pm

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby joeblast » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:26 am

pete5770 wrote:I understand that you believe in something that I don't and that's just fine with me. My whole concern on this post is that the OP will, for some reason, decide that the way to go with his diabetes is Qigong and accupunture and ignore completely the hard work involved in getting your diet straight and losing the weight. Please note that the OP NEVER mentioned diet, never said whether or not he was seeing a medical Doctor, did not talk about any concern about weight loss.
Now I ask you, if he puts all his efforts into Qigong and accupunture do you believe this will have any real effect on his diabetic state? He needs to do what WILL work and not rely on some "easy" cure by doing some stretching, breathing, and having someone stick needles in him. If it was that easy there wouldn't be anyone with diabetes.

The OP is free to disregard anyone's advice as he sees fit, each of us is responsible for the choices we make - but when the first 4 responses all tell him to primarily consider diet, we hope that should carry some weight with him and we can guess a doctor would tell him the same thing. Since he didnt indicate whether that was his approach we can only guess. But he did ask about complimentary things, so where is the harm in trying to provide a decent answer along the lines of the question - after having given proper weight to what should be the primary method of attack? Poo-pooing TCM & qigong is frankly out of scope in a place designed for qigong discussion. Nothing wrong with saying "this should not be the primary method of treatment" for this condition, but saying "dont bother with this stuff, its a useless waste of time" just makes one question why you're even responding to it, or viewing a qigong forum, for that matter. Not that I'm saying leave, but crimines! OT derailment, that.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
joeblast
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: CT

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby brer_momonga » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:01 am

joeblast wrote:The OP is free to disregard anyone's advice as he sees fit, each of us is responsible for the choices we make - but when the first 4 responses all tell him to primarily consider diet, we hope that should carry some weight with him and we can guess a doctor would tell him the same thing. Since he didnt indicate whether that was his approach we can only guess. But he did ask about complimentary things, so where is the harm in trying to provide a decent answer along the lines of the question - after having given proper weight to what should be the primary method of attack? Poo-pooing TCM & qigong is frankly out of scope in a place designed for qigong discussion. Nothing wrong with saying "this should not be the primary method of treatment" for this condition, but saying "dont bother with this stuff, its a useless waste of time" just makes one question why you're even responding to it, or viewing a qigong forum, for that matter. Not that I'm saying leave, but crimines! OT derailment, that.


I've been trying to choose the right words to communicate this sentiment since yesterday - but my drafts always ended up sounding passive-aggressive. Thanks!
brer_momonga
Forum Specialist
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:36 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:59 pm

joeblast wrote:Nothing wrong with saying "this should not be the primary method of treatment" for this condition, but saying "dont bother with this stuff, its a useless waste of time"............


Don't mind if you quote me and don't mind if you even vehemently disagree but misquoting what I said or using what you think I was saying is not OK with me. Either that or I can't find where I said "...don't bother..... waste of time...". Fair enough? :? :?
pete5770
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:16 pm

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Dvivid » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:04 pm

And, as we wrap up this delightful conversation, a summary:

1. go to a Doctor if you have diabetes.
2. Diabetes 2 is considered a diet-based problem.
3. people have had success using qigong and/or tai chi to mitigate their symptoms*. This is best done in conjunction with your Doctor.

* Not only have I read studies where this has been done, I personally know people who use these arts to deal with their condition, in some cases getting entirely off insulin shots.

So, have hope, and don't be negative!
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1722
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Monsoon » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:30 pm

I just want to add a corollary to what Dvivid has so excellently summarised. Regarding the first point: caution must be exercised when approaching a physician, as there is no consensus among them on how to treat the diabetic condition. In the US, despite the American Diabetic Association recommendations, there are still a fair number of doctors who do not adhere to them.

In my own case my GP wanted to head straight down the 'medication path'. As a I have a strong background in the biomedical sciences, and already knew that diabetes will not kill me overnight, I declined this approach in favour of research. After a fairly intensive bit of reading I tentatively concluded that, in my case, a dietary/exercise approach was preferable. This did not sit well with my GP who baldly stated that I would be back in 3 months begging for the meds. He did however give me the kits to do extensive blood testing.

This was all back in June 2012.

Three months of hard work later I returned. I had changed my diet extensively (partly by trial and error, partly via the literature - everyone's needs are a little different). I charted everything I had eaten, every exercise step I had taken, my sleep patterns and blood glucose levels taken 3 times a day every day. All of this went into a spreadsheet and was graphed.

At my initial diagnosis my fasting blood glucose level was 16.6 (298.8 on the US scale). At 3 months my fasting BG level was 4.8 (86.4). My weight dropped from 110kg to 83 kg and is very stable.

My GP was stunned... literally, and to his credit took a bite of humble pie and admitted he had been wrong about me, although he did say that this type of success was exceptionally rare, which I can accept.

Now the reason why it is difficult for diabetics to achieve this kind of control is mainly down to discipline and compliance.

Lessons I learned from the process?

1. Do your research. If you do not understand something, ask.
2. Formulate a plan and stick to it - but do not be afraid to make adjustments as necessary (everyone is a little different)
3. Keep the dialogue with your GP open, even if they don't agree with what you are doing.
4. Get a good dietician on board.
5. Do everything you can to reduces stress.
6. If you are struggling, get support.

Even with my medical background I found 'going it alone' was exceptionally hard. For non-medical people it will be harder still, which is why I do not recommend doing this alone. Stress is a killer for diabetics. Do whatever it takes to reduce it. If this means meditation or qigong or something else, do it.

The one area where I personally really struggled was with diet composition. I knew nothing about what was in my food. It took a lot of trial and error and I realised later that I could have saved myself a great deal of trouble by talking to a dietician.

One of the other upshots of what I have done is to alter my GPs perception of how people cope with this condition. He is modifying his approach to include these ideas (even though they are not really new).

Another thing is that I embrace a lot of stuff that was unproven although relatively harmless in itself. For example, eating raw almonds is reputed to help regulate BG. As eating almonds like this is actually good for you nutritionally it does no harm to inculde them in your diet. In fact they have now become my snack of choice! Similarly, vinegar has an interesting regulatory effect on digestion. So eat those pickles if you like 'em!

Overall my diet is now rich AND healthy. And I still eat the occasional burger or KFC (no more than once per week though) - individuals will have to factor this in for themselves by test. On the other hand I eat no refined sugar, very little to no potatoes, no potato chip/snacks, no chocolate etc, and I don't miss any of it.

Hopefully this will encourage people to think about how their lives can be improved even with diabetes.
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby chh » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:35 am

Congratulations- that's a great accomplishment. I know how difficult it is to attain that kind of blood sugar control, and it took me a lot longer than a few months.

I have Type I Diabetes, so taking insulin is a necessary part of the treatment, but I've found lots of ways to take as little as possible and restrict my diet as little as possible- stress management and exercise are definitely the two main components. :)
chh
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:09 pm

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Dvivid » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:07 am

Monsoon, excellent post, thanks for sharing that.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1722
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Ventodivino » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:12 pm

Btw more than a year has passsed.
I'm going further qigong practise, every day , just 5 mins and alchemy, it is slowly relaxing myself, no hyperglicemic because of stress and i' going to be vegan 5 days of the week: on the week end i'm following my diet, but without on the evening i usually eat a good piece of beef or fish. Diet is the key, but qigong and agopuncture help me to make the key stable. Good luck everyone and don't give up: endurance, perseverance, resistance.
Ventodivino
Forum Newbie
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:24 pm

Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby yeniseri » Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:47 pm

I added some information on a German study referencing exercise and NIDDM (type II diabetes)
https://www.thieme-connect.com/DOI/DOI? ... 31-1280805

One is actually working with 3 variables per the above study so by doing qigong (which is insufficient per frequency, intensity and duration (FID)), you have 2 other variables (diet and following your drug regimen) to allow for decreasing the deleterious effects of NIDDM.
I re-iterate that qigong, being suboptimal in FID) has limited effect. Walking 1 mile per day for the rest of one life is surely better than qigong or taijiquan in FID.

Remember that before engaging in any physical activity, make sure your MD has assessed your fitness for the activity you are about to engage.
yeniseri
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:18 pm
Location: USA

Previous

Return to Qigong / Chi Kung

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests

cron
©2013 YMAA | About YMAA | Privacy Policy |Terms of Use | Permissions | Contact Us