Stance

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Re: Stance

Postby mansao » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:52 am

@pete5770

you would probably "amend" that, but I wouldn't =]

the IT you are training is your stance...thats why they call it stance training
if you see it for what it is, stance training, then that is exactly what you will get out of it because thats what it was made for!
to my understanding of stance training, the point of it is to develop a solid, stable/centered and rooted structure in which your strikes derive from. If you don't have that then you are basically flailing your arms
but if you see it as a way of developing strong leg muscles, then that means you would have to overtrain it (100lb weight vests, maybe some squats, etc.)...in other words you will have to switch your primary emphasis from stance development to muscle development.
using an exercise to develop one thing, when it was designed to develop something else doesn't seem like the most efficient road to take

but thats just me, you don't have to take my word for it


2ndly and i'ma make this short
stance training is basically teaching you how to stand straight without falling over
but to take it to the next level you have to actually use it
meaning you have to actually be able to maintain that stance against strong, fast, and agile opponents that are trying to hit you, thats why those "crazy" sifus train the stances for hours. The more you develop it, the more pressure it will be able to withstand.

so that IT you are training (the stance), doesn't just end with standing still for 30 minutes, you actually have to use it constantly if you want to develop it to higher planes
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Re: Stance

Postby pete5770 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:42 pm

mansao wrote:@pete5770

you would probably "amend" that, but I wouldn't =]

the IT you are training is your stance...thats why they call it stance training
if you see it for what it is, stance training, then that is exactly what you will get out of it because thats what it was made for!
to my understanding of stance training, the point of it is to develop a solid, stable/centered and rooted structure in which your strikes derive from. If you don't have that then you are basically flailing your arms
but if you see it as a way of developing strong leg muscles, then that means you would have to overtrain it (100lb weight vests, maybe some squats, etc.)...in other words you will have to switch your primary emphasis from stance development to muscle development.
using an exercise to develop one thing, when it was designed to develop something else doesn't seem like the most efficient road to take

but thats just me, you don't have to take my word for it


2ndly and i'ma make this short
stance training is basically teaching you how to stand straight without falling over
but to take it to the next level you have to actually use it
meaning you have to actually be able to maintain that stance against strong, fast, and agile opponents that are trying to hit you, thats why those "crazy" sifus train the stances for hours. The more you develop it, the more pressure it will be able to withstand.

so that IT you are training (the stance), doesn't just end with standing still for 30 minutes, you actually have to use it constantly if you want to develop it to higher planes


I can't argue with what you say. My way of thinking is that I intend to do pretty much whatever is required to keep my legs strong and flexible for as long as I can. It's always been the major reason I do Tai Chi, stance training, cycling, weight training, etc. Years ago I read an article about how and why older people seem to lose all lower body capabilities(walking, bending, jumping, etc.) yet still have upper bodies that are very capable of working well. Long story short, use it or lose it. Me, I fully intend to make use of my legs and do whatever I can to keep them from failing and putting me in a wheelchair later in life.
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Re: Stance

Postby mansao » Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:18 pm

respect
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Re: Stance

Postby joeblast » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:35 am

holy thread derailments, batman :lol:

prepare properly and you can do practically anything. 1 finger handstand against the wall is certainly not recommended unless you have trained long and hard for it - therefore it is up to each of us to know and listen to one's body well, mind posture, live and experience the yinyang symbolism through this. one not overpowering another and causing injury, but mutually supporting and strengthening.

pete here's a couple notes that point to a couple different areas:

-keep the lumbosacral junction straight, very important for the back, it will more thoroughly engage the kua (think psoas) and is a strong component in rooting. even from a more upright zhan zhuang posture, this focus has many benefits for the spine - I dont know if we want to get into the neural aspect here, but there's a lower parasympathetic loop that emerges from the sacrum (2-3, 3-4 one of those) that you can use to "connect the sacrum to the ground" when standing, helps one "stand like mountain." :lol: and in using that while in the higher position engenders development that assists in the lower stance, combined with the low-stance concept of:

-"drilling the shin-posts into the ground" - the back stuff actually helps you keep the shins perpendicular to the ground. you can imagine a pair of huge bolts running along the outside of the lower legs, running straight into the ground, and mentally drill them into the ground (but you're not "pushing" so much as grounding/rooting.) so in effect this is also engaging the kua more thoroughly, and with its intimate breath connection, it becomes every bit as much a breathing exercise as it is a standing exercise. definitely recommend reverse breathing for these stances.

I posted this in the qigong section but this link is relevant here also, so I'll pop it in

:)
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Re: Stance

Postby pete5770 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:16 am

joeblast wrote:holy thread derailments, batman :lol:

prepare properly and you can do practically anything. 1 finger handstand against the wall is certainly not recommended unless you have trained long and hard for it - therefore it is up to each of us to know and listen to one's body well, mind posture, live and experience the yinyang symbolism through this. one not overpowering another and causing injury, but mutually supporting and strengthening.

pete here's a couple notes that point to a couple different areas:

-keep the lumbosacral junction straight, very important for the back, it will more thoroughly engage the kua (think psoas) and is a strong component in rooting. even from a more upright zhan zhuang posture, this focus has many benefits for the spine - I dont know if we want to get into the neural aspect here, but there's a lower parasympathetic loop that emerges from the sacrum (2-3, 3-4 one of those) that you can use to "connect the sacrum to the ground" when standing, helps one "stand like mountain." :lol: and in using that while in the higher position engenders development that assists in the lower stance, combined with the low-stance concept of:

-"drilling the shin-posts into the ground" - the back stuff actually helps you keep the shins perpendicular to the ground. you can imagine a pair of huge bolts running along the outside of the lower legs, running straight into the ground, and mentally drill them into the ground (but you're not "pushing" so much as grounding/rooting.) so in effect this is also engaging the kua more thoroughly, and with its intimate breath connection, it becomes every bit as much a breathing exercise as it is a standing exercise. definitely recommend reverse breathing for these stances.

I posted this in the qigong section but this link is relevant here also, so I'll pop it in
:)


For whayever reason I seem to have missed this post until today. Very well put though. Don't believe I've ever heard the term "drilling" in relation to the legs but I can follow the meaning. Stability is greatly enhanced when you have learned to fasten yourself to the ground. One of my Tai Chi teachers once said that footwork / stability was 90% of all martial arts. That was many years ago and as far as I'm concerned it still rings true.

Also thanks for the "link". Very interesting.
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Re: Stance

Postby Dvivid » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:25 pm

Love the drawings in the link. Joe, are you involved with that school?
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Re: Stance

Postby Monsoon » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:14 am

Two things pop into my mind while reading through this thread:

1. It's (probably) a physical impossibility for anyone to sit ma bu with the lower legs perpendicular to the ground (from all views), the thighs parallel to the ground and the trunk upright. All the weight would be over the butt which is protruding one thigh length outside the centre of balance. Basically, the angle between the foot and shin must be less than 90 degrees, unless you want to lean the torso a long way forward. To me this would represent a tensioned position rather than a relaxed one.

2. Looking at some of the exceptionally wide ma bu stances that some 'shaolin' guys do makes me wonder just how fat the horses were back in the day.

Just some random thoughts,

/walks away whistling :)

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Re: Stance

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:36 pm

Monsoon wrote:Two things pop into my mind while reading through this thread:

1. It's (probably) a physical impossibility for anyone to sit ma bu with the lower legs perpendicular to the ground (from all views), the thighs parallel to the ground and the trunk upright. All the weight would be over the butt which is protruding one thigh length outside the centre of balance. Basically, the angle between the foot and shin must be less than 90 degrees, unless you want to lean the torso a long way forward. To me this would represent a tensioned position rather than a relaxed one.

2. Looking at some of the exceptionally wide ma bu stances that some 'shaolin' guys do makes me wonder just how fat the horses were back in the day.

Just some random thoughts,

/walks away whistling :)

Monsoon


I like the idea of wide and deep stances. If only from the viewpoint that as far as helping to build strong legs this seems to be very effective. Not that that's the only reason, but I am a big fan of any leg work that helps maintain the legs usefullness as you advance in years.
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Re: Stance

Postby Monsoon » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:13 pm

In that case you would be better off doing squats with weights.
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Re: Stance

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:34 pm

Monsoon wrote:In that case you would be better off doing squats with weights.


I used to lift a lot and squats were right up there in the routine. Now days, at 64, I have discovered
that this old body of mine won't take the abuse that I used to dish out to it. These days it's Tai Chi, cycling, and some upper body weight training. Seems to work for me. I try to maintain fairly wide and deep stances in Tai Chi. Not necessarily because it's what you're supposed to do but for the strengthening aspects of stances like that. That may not be in keeping with the conventional Tai Chi wisdom but the idea of very strong legs appeals to me and I don't believe it to be counter productive to Tai Chi.
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Re: Stance

Postby Monsoon » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:24 pm

In that case... you would be better off doing dynamic squats: a squat and jump!
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Re: Stance

Postby caesar » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:17 am

This reminds me that my picture of Yang style (before I started, I knew little of TCC anyway) was high stances and less (hard) leg work compared to many arts. But my teacher encourages me to train with long deep stances to which I am actually yet physically unable to do. Actually, when I look at Chen style practitioners, their stances aren't that deep compared to how we train in our school. Saying this, I must say that the deep stances in our style is a big question mark for me...It raises questions to me when I think of Bruce Frantzis talking a lot about this max 70% effort training method.
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Re: Stance

Postby pete5770 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:20 am

Monsoon wrote:In that case... you would be better off doing dynamic squats: a squat and jump!


I guess I'm not looking for the perfect leg exercise, more like doing what I enjoy, cycling(I do lots) and Tai Chi fill the bill.
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Re: Stance

Postby pete5770 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:21 am

mansao wrote:@pete5770

but if you see it as a way of developing strong leg muscles, then that means you would have to overtrain it (100lb weight vests, maybe some squats, etc.)...in other words you will have to switch your primary emphasis from stance development to muscle development.
using an exercise to develop one thing, when it was designed to develop something else doesn't seem like the most efficient road to take



Not sure I agree with you. The way I see it is that by constantly seeking deeper, harder, wider, and longer lasting stances that this fulfills two ideals. One - Actually making your stances more stable and able to "resist" incoming pressures, so to speak. Two - Forcing(overtraining, as you might say) the muscles, tendons, ligaments, to become stronger and that's not a bad thing.
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Re: Stance

Postby joeblast » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:04 pm

Dvivid wrote:Love the drawings in the link. Joe, are you involved with that school?

Nope, just passin it on, a buddy of mine showed it first :)
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