Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

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Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby Dvivid » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:35 am

Hi,

I wanted to announce a new 6-hour DVD set available now from Ramel Rones. Following the success of his first program, Sunrise Tai Chi, Rami teaches taijiquan solo and partner exercises by breaking down taiji postures into many different drills, exercises, and yi chuan meditations.

His way of teaching is really unique, but since he is a disciple of Master Yang, the teaching is still congruent with YMAA taijiquan.

As always, I value the feedback of everyone in the forum. Thanks,
David Silver
YMAA Video Director
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby buddhafist » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:35 pm

Some feedback here...

got the DVD today, have seen maybe only an hour of it now - this is BIG!

I have no other words than this...

...so many exercises, and so clear broken down. Maybe this program is a little underestimated?!
A true pearl here for those who already stick deep in the realm of Taiji.
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby fazhou » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:43 pm

I can't open the links with Safari or Firefox. Are they broke? edit* I can open the last one, but the first two are FTP?
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby buddhafist » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:41 am

This thread was really old, but I thought its worth to bring it up again.

I´m sure you found this one, in case you didn´t
http://ymaa.com/publishing/dvd/taiji_energy_patterns

Maybe I should add some more points:
Whenever I am doing push hands with my teacher, I think this is too much, too fast, too whatever.
You have to coordinate legs plus doing peng, lu, an & ji from which you know maybe nothing...
and although I fully agree, that the name Gongfu wasn´t given just for fun, I don´t want to
do push hands 10 years before I get the idea. And here this program comes in, because it breaks
down the four energies. Its not like "sink or swim"...actually you can experience here one by one.

Plus, I think teaching Taiji is not very easy...many teachers can show and let you feel how its done...but they can´t explain exactly whats going on. So Ramel did a great job here! Especially if you want to teach Taiji maybe this is a good addition, to reach the student there where he is at the moment. Ok, enough praising :D Lets practice!
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby yeniseri » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:43 pm

Experientially, I am skeptical of penglujiankao.....as being energy patterns since I do not know how they can be seen as such but I am willing to keep an open mind. I just have to read more and see what it entails. At best, I see them as applications. I shall read more to see what is meant.
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby Dvivid » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:36 pm

Hi

I need to get a revised version of this preview online.

Meanwhile, yeniseri - the idea is that the energy of 'peng, lu, ji, and an' are fundamental principles of taiji that repeat not only in those movements, but in other movements as well.

You can find the same intention of warding off, rolling back, pressing, and pushing throughout the taijiquan form, other martial arts forms, and elsewhere in life.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:33 pm

Dvivid wrote:Meanwhile, yeniseri - the idea is that the energy of 'peng, lu, ji, and an' are fundamental principles of taiji that repeat not only in those movements, but in other movements as well.

You can find the same intention of warding off, rolling back, pressing, and pushing throughout the taijiquan form, other martial arts forms, and elsewhere in life.


I know people think they understand what these are, but i am with yeniseri on this. See, if we look at what passes for tai chi today, we get form, push hands, and maybe a few weapons. And since there is very little internal work actually being done, the whole thing can be learned in 6 months or less.

It is my belief that the curriculum needed to be expanded on so the teachers could actually teach students for more than 6 months, so they made these "energies" relevant. That would explain why so few people actually know what they are! It is the fault of the "tai chi for health" nonsense.
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby fazhou » Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:59 am

Huh?
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:39 pm

fazhou wrote:Huh?


Really? ok.. here is the spelling out of it! Taiji, which was at one time, the greatest fighting art of all of china, has been reduced to an activity barely suitable for the elderly, and people dont see why this is wrong...

The main cause has been (in my estimation) is the simplification of the art so that more people can do it, and the removal of martial functionality.. well, realistic martial functionality.

What was left was Form (usually a short one), push hands techniques, and MAYBE a weapon form or 2. Because there is no internal quality in any of this, the whole thing can be learned in 6 months or less (which, if you look into it, that is about as long as it took instructors to learn the 24, push hands curriculum).

Now, we have these teachers wanting to make a living at teaching taiji (because they have a certificate that says they know), but they cant realistically teach 24 form in 2 years! That would be a dead give away at stealing, so instead, they went to the classics and borrowed a bunch of things that they have no understanding of to teach. NOW, they have students for YEARS because they have no way to literally teach these things with their no martial art martial art.

To dumb it down, these energies, while they exist, were not meant to be taught like this! One does the work, and they are learned. Focusing on them is counter-productive because we know have people talking about isolated ideas as full concepts. What do i mean? I have heard LU being described as a long yielding type movement, that is applied on an unrealistic attack (usually a single attack from a non-serious attacker). Lu is very short and very deadly, as we learned it (after we had been working on the physical stuff for months).

Of course, i could be all wrong with this (and when Josh gets back, i am most certain to hear all about this). Again, this is just my idea.

Hope that clarifies things for you mate! :)
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby baihe shifu » Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:36 am

WpgTaiji sums it up quite well although I wouldn't go as far as to say any art was the "Greatest Fighting Art".

My introduction to Taiji came through my good friend Erle Montaigue back in the eighties. Erle opened my eyes to a number of things ... the first being that Taiji was fighting form not just a hippie slow motion dance! He also opened my eyes or more importantly my mind to that or Dim-Mak. It was in 1988, Following my select students and I being guests at the Kung Fu Wushu Federation Nationals I took my guys to meet Erle at his then home in Leura on the Blue Mountains of NSW in OZ. It was then that he introduced me to the whole Dim-Mak thing.

I continue that "heart-mind" by now being a recognised instructor of Erle's teachings not only by Erle but also by his son Eli who is now the head of the World Taiji Boxing Association.

I see the same thing happening with White Crane Gongfu coming out of China and other countries. What was once a viable Life-Protection art (I say life-protection because it and self-defence are two entirely different things) has been sadly watered down, hardened in movement concepts and delivery to the point that much of its original intent is for many, sadly lost.
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby Dvivid » Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:20 am

Taiji...has been reduced to an activity barely suitable for the elderly, and people dont see why this is wrong...


I understand your sentiment, and this may have been true in the 1980s, and less true in the 1990s, and even less true today. I think you guys might be stuck in the 80s.

Many people in martial arts society have made a lot of effort in recent decades to improve upon this situation, and preserve the traditional arts, not the least of which being Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. Since you are posting on a YMAA forum, you might try and recognize these efforts. I promise Dr. Yang's taijiquan is not an activity suitable only for the elderly.

In other words, please be humble and don't be so negative and dismissive of others' hard work teaching, promoting, and preserving internal arts.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby baihe shifu » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:56 am

In other words, please be humble and don't be so negative and dismissive of others' hard work teaching, promoting, and preserving internal arts.


Great .... Fantastic! I have to agree with this 100% If only we all practiced such an attitude then the Martial Arts world would be a far better, nicer and more productive place!
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:34 pm

Dvivid wrote:I understand your sentiment, and this may have been true in the 1980s, and less true in the 1990s, and even less true today. I think you guys might be stuck in the 80s.

Interesting that you feel this way. Please provide your "proof"! When I look for taiji in my area, I ONLY find taiji for health! There is one school that attempts to teach it as a martial art, but that is as a tag-a-long to choy lee fut, and it isnt very martial! All fails! In my home town, taiji is ONLY taught at the 55 plus centre, meaning it is entirely comprised of old people, or "blue hairs".

I am sorry mate. There may be people attempting to teach taiji as a martial art, but all they have done is take an internal art and made it external, lying to people the whole time! The saddest was a poor woman who passed in 2011. She claimed to have had 16 years of taiji training (when you talk with her, you find it was only seminars), and she disliked anything about Qi or QIgong! All over youtube, she put up application vids that are karate done slower and softer.

Please, if I am wrong, PROVE IT! Show me schools where government taiji (24, 48, etc) do not consist of the ENTIRE curriculum. Please! I laughed with Erle about a clip he put on YouTube of one of the 3 men who created the 48 combination form. It was so funny because Erle told me that the man never did that form! He only made it to increase the quality of his life in China! this is one of the men who gave Erle his Master's certification, and there are pictures on his site, iirc. It is funny because Erle derided these forms, yet, he was the only one to provide such an amazing artifact: it would be like having a video of Luchan doing his form, or Chen Fu doing his!

I have always said that the best way to learn taiji is not to do those forms, but to start learning an original form, and work with the methods that go along with learning the form.

mate, this is not negative!
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby yeniseri » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:45 pm

Taijiquan was not well known at all so the Beijing University PE facility put together the main teachers of the day who were sympathetic to the politics and they developed this Beijing 24 shi taijiquan. At the PE level, it was a beneficial exercise and it still is but it isn't the only exercise. As more people, became aware of this in the 1940s, taijiquan spread to all part of the country because thye needed to propagate this cultural heirloom.

When you learn the form at the PE level, penglijiankaozhou...etc is just movement. When you start to learn tuishou then it become apparent, they are levels and branches of application based on that learning paradigm.

I have never found the tuishou learning pattern to be properly taught in the first place! I still keep my eyes and ears 'open' to a structured training programme. When I have asked questions about such a programme regarding instruction, I have NEVER gotten the appropriate answer.
I learnt a 2 man pattern but I found that too mechanical so I disregarded it and I have some tuishou experience but I consider it elementary at best though I am somewhat good at it but in all honesty, it is lacking.
I have found Wu style practitioner s to be the more proficient and consistant tuishou practitioners when compared to Yang style

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUmaFgzD2nk
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby baihe shifu » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:35 am

Yeniseri

Have a look at I Liq Chuan I have found their "Spinning Hands" very interesting!
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby sub_human » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:18 pm

I know a good many hamburger joints, that sell hamburgers..

Some are $.99 and some are $8. Even with the same toppings, the taste and quality can be leagues apart. MsDonalds sells more hamburgers than anyone.. but are they the best?

Do people consuming McDonald's hambergers believe they are the best..? Or just understand it's cheap & nurishing? (howerver little bit)




Everywhere I look, I see compitent people teaching those who are seeking. I cannot understand how many here can dismiss the level of teaching that is found in the West. Our friend wpgtaiji, himself has mentioned Earle & Yang... & yet both were not known here in the US, or prominantly known 30 years ago... as much as they are today. (fact)

Even 15 years ago.. a newcomer would have to being seeking/studying pretty indepth before coming across a charlatan. But today any teenager, once hearing "tai chi" will come across the likes of Montaigue, Yang, or Himmet, etc.. using their google phones. & even without knowing what they are looking at, Humans are able to perceive right & wrong and make comparisons of skill (etc).

How can one claim openly that "Where ever you look, all you see is.... blah blah blah.." There is more trueness now, than there was 20 years ago. There is more skill now, than there was 20 years ago..

I mimick David's sentiment... do you people live in the 70's/80's?
(You are within a Master's forum right now, sharing deep stuff... that is reality that certain people here, seem to omit within themselves.)



As for the confusion above, is more about symantics and ambiguity:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%27ai_chi_ch%27uan )

As Taijiquan is different than Tia Chi to many people. Even if you don't see it that way. China is large and North America is large.. different dialect, different master dispersing many disciples who have different terminology. All with different focus & purpose.


Those 70 year old's practicing Tai Chi are not looking for external martial art, but an internal one. Both equally valid. You can argue that some are not even doing tai chi, but Qigong.. and some will argue it is the same, etc.. So, where one might draw a line with the verbage, others might give liberties because the context is more important than the "it".

I call it a "loving hand".. where u understand what they mean, even if what they explain or said, was wrong.



If all you can find is "taiji for health.. etc" when looking in your area, doesn't mean what you looking for isn't out there. You are just stating a simplicity of fact; that what you're looking for is not in your area. But it also means an opposite truth aswell.. that you know what your looking for and havn't found it (in your area).

Though.. that may not be true for your nesighbor, or someone who doesn't live in your area. So plz (once again) don't assume for me, based on your findings.. as true for everyone.

Because My results in my area differ. (We have better hamburger joints, apparently..)



.
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:45 pm

sub, you are a joker! There is lower skill today than at any time in history, and the public, with all the information at hand, is less able to spot real skill or real movement than ever before!

I asked for PROOF, not words! Show me I am wrong!
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby John the Monkey mind » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:05 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:sub, you are a joker! There is lower skill today than at any time in history, and the public, with all the information at hand, is less able to spot real skill or real movement than ever before!

I asked for PROOF, not words! Show me I am wrong!


I would say that in the UK at least the skill is higher than in the 70-90's given from what I have been told by people who started in martial arts back then. The days when any Chinese man with 6 months kung fu training in Hong Kong can set up as a Master seem to be mostly in the past. Some of the bigger assassination may be a little Mc Dojo but they have at least a basic level of ability. Also a number of more underground internal martial artists are about and some of them have reasonable skill. People are better informed and connected and if you want the real stuff you can find it now, in the past it was much harder.
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby sub_human » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:31 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:sub, you are a joker! There is lower skill today than at any time in history, and the public, with all the information at hand, is less able to spot real skill or real movement than ever before!

I asked for PROOF, not words! Show me I am wrong!



Proof..?

It is realitively clear. You are here, are you not.. on an internet forum. Started by one of the top influential masters of our time. (or, any taiji forum)

The FACT, that we are discussing such things from afar, is the proof.


More proof? How about the fact that you know tai chi and the chances of that in the 70's was slim to none. Knowledge is spreading faster now, than ever before... & yet, somehow you're unable to see this?

I do not believe you are being truthful with yourself, U think because there are more casual aspects of tai chi & even many community classes, that somehow the art is watered down. It is not, it just means one is able to seek the hamburger they need.

Not every student needs a star master to learn something about themselves, to learn their kung fu.


The fact you need proof, is indicative of the fact you're needy. Unable to see, or look for yourself. If you find something sour.. do u stop tasting.. or continue on? If u don't continue on, how will you ever see whats really out there?

Internal arts are alive and strong, more so than 30 years ago... because even the masters have uncovered ancient documents in recent years, that are unlocking more knowledge of the internal arts.

For every charlatan u can post/link about, I can link to authentic..


We understand your upset about certain people being "fooled" or "taken for money", but that is your perspective. How do you know those individuals don't know... but just want to get out of the house and do something positive and for their well being...?

The burden of proof is on you, because you are the one who made the outlandish statments of 99% of all teachers are charlatans, etc.. (you express this sentiment in nearly every thread).


Erle is gone, time to find a different hamburger maker...
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Re: Tai Chi Energy Patterns - peng, lu, ji, an

Postby baihe shifu » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:15 pm

Okay, this is getting interesting.

Wpgtaiji,

Does it matter a pile of beans if someone only teaches Tai Chi for health??? That's a good thing right?

And what about the person who teaches Taiji for Life-Protection? That's a good thing right?

And why is the 100% "original" (more on this later) form the only one of benefit health or martial or both?

Can you not look at say a 24 Form and make that Martial! If not then your own training might just be deficient?

Did Erle teach Taiji for Health? Yes! Did Erle teach Taiji for Fighting? Yes!

Did Erle make changes to the Taiji he taught? Yes? This is by his own admissions. Does that mean it is any less practical for health, combat or both?

Now back to the "Original" form .... I don't know about you but I am pretty damn sure that no one can lay claim to be teaching the exact 100% ORIGINAL form within any martial arts little alone Taiji! Anyone that claims that is deluding themselves and those who study with them. Each individual within a lineage has knowingly or unknowingly influenced that which they train and teach simply by their own personality, characters and physical traits.

What are your thoughts on the Taiji of Master Yang Jwing-Ming???

Wpgtaiji, you do Taiji correct? You also do a form of White Crane that you say comes from the Huang Shen Shyan line if I'm correct(?)

So what are your thoughts on the Huang Taiji and the Huang White Crane as both are highly internal almost Taoist in their expressions?

What about the footage of GM Huang bouncing people all over the place with his fajjin? What are your thoughts on this?

Please share with us all.
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