Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:28 pm

shinobi wrote:I want to clear things about TCM. I DON'T think TCM (Acupuncture) is bull.... I
did what I could. I took all the sessions doctor told me to. I didn't quit.
I know that qigong and acupuncture both fixing qi stagnation, qi deficit, qi fire...
But I think that there is a HUGE difference (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Qigong is done
EVERY day (or twice a day) FOR LIFE. Acupuncture is done in a series of sessions and
thats it. My personal believe is that qi must be maintained on the daily basis (as we brush our tooth) doing so with acupuncture possible only for millionares.

No mate. You are incorrect. They are the same, at their core. If you believe one wont help you, the other has no chance either.
The second difference in my opinion is that OUR mind is forcing qi to circulate in needed paths. Respiratory system is working very nice during qigong bringing a lot of
oxygen to lower parts of our lungs (those large amounts of oxygen are transffered into qi ? I'm not sure)

mate, if that was the case, then we all would have died a long time ago. It is not a conscious process (no vital life function is).
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I think that acupancture can balance the existing qi
in the body as qigong can, BUT qigong can also increase the overall
"amount" of qi in body (and reservoirs).
Again, this is just my novice opinion, please feel free to correct me :) Thanks !

Three strikes mate! well, this is a partial strike... Your idea as to qigong is flawed. They are ALL about balancing qi! are there some that increase qi? sure. But not to more than you are supposed to have. Acupuncture allows qi to enter the body much easier via the needle. The needle breaks the resistance of the skin.

And thank you josh! That is what i was meaning! Just because one has a crazy experience with qi, does not mean that everyone else will. You may be more out than someone else. OR the doc may have no idea what is wrong with you. Simply throwing qigong at a problem (without them being root methods), has no hope either. You are trying to do one thing, but the qigong may be trying to do a totally different thing.

bottom line, you need to find a GOOD doctor (east, west, qigong, etc) who can tell you what is going on inside you. They need to spell it out, and not take a test and say "you are fine" if you arent. There is no one on here that can give you what you want. We do not have the experience (not being docs, and not having examined you). I can imagine how scary it is mate. But it isnt simple... not if you havent changed the root causes of why you are sick.

To put it in perspective, whenever I asked Erle about a qigong to do for this or that disease, guess what he would ALWAYS ask? Every single time, to my great frustration, he would ask "what is the person's eating habits like?" the food we eat and how we eat it (time, etc) has a greater impact on our energy and health than anything else we do (including qigong). if nothing is working, ask yourself that question "what am i eating"? Do i even understand what "correct" eating is? (if you are using the American food pyramid, you are WRONG! That is a scary piece of propaganda thrown at human beings)!

mate, that is really all there is to it. You have to figure it out, or find a good doc who can really take the time to look at it. 10 to 1, it is diet related. The problem is, what is correct for you? Pritchett wrote an excellent tomb on food "Healing with Whole Foods". It is massive (700+ pages) that takes both east and west together. If you want to be healthy, get it and study it. Continue to do basic qigong and martial arts, for sure. But correct what and how you eat.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby Brian » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:52 am

wpgtaiji wrote:
shinobi wrote:I want to clear things about TCM. I DON'T think TCM (Acupuncture) is bull.... I
did what I could. I took all the sessions doctor told me to. I didn't quit.
I know that qigong and acupuncture both fixing qi stagnation, qi deficit, qi fire...
But I think that there is a HUGE difference (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Qigong is done
EVERY day (or twice a day) FOR LIFE. Acupuncture is done in a series of sessions and
thats it. My personal believe is that qi must be maintained on the daily basis (as we brush our tooth) doing so with acupuncture possible only for millionares.

No mate. You are incorrect. They are the same, at their core. If you believe one wont help you, the other has no chance either.


I don't agree...there are millions of people around the world who attend TCM WITHOUT any prior knowledge of Qi or QiGong....and, as I have said before, for many it works, and for others it doesn't...but, its efficacy or otherwise doesn't depend on a belief in the existance of QiGong and its benefits.
Taiji, QiGong and Meditation
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby sengtsan » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:11 am

Hi Shinobi,

I am sorry to see that you have received some negative comments or weird advices recently.

Don't waist your time with endless discussions about the difference between qigong and acupuncture. If you want to know,go to some source: here at YMAA publishing there are valuable books about Qigong theory and TCM theory.

If you are confident that you have medically checked everything, just do your qigong as you planned to do it. Have a healthy lifestyle ( eat well, exercise, do qigong, try to have a daily contact with nature)

Don't take anti-depressants unless you are strongly advised to do it by a Medical Doctor you trust and only if you mentally suffer beyond your control. Otherwise, avoid them they will worsen your condition.

You are the only one in charge of your health, and no one here behind our screens has seen you, and no one here is a MD or TCM doctor. So we can only give you general advices.

Practice and come back to let us know how it goes, this seems to be a constructive plan :D

Be well!
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby joeblast » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:22 am

Anyone who's read the yellow emperor's classic has an idea of how fantastically complex a comprehensive diagnosis is. A hundred sessions with the wrong diagnosis will bear no fruit.

Wpg, it would help if your words didn't sound so certain.

Shinobi, have you tried 3-6 months or more of a regimen? Dealing with your issues will require the.establishing of habit and perserverence as penance, so to speak. Imho you will require 5,6 times a week of appropriate difficulty workouts, nightly meditation for an hour, and solidly establish that habit for a good duration before you will be able to climb out of the hole you're in. I will elaborate more later, but absent any concrete finding of diagnosis, the rote method may be a good path.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby pete5770 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:40 pm

sengtsan wrote:
Don't take anti-depressants unless you are strongly advised to do it by a Medical Doctor you trust and only if you mentally suffer beyond your control. Otherwise, avoid them they will worsen your condition.

...... no one here is a MD or TCM doctor. So we can only give you general advices.



Your second part claims "...no one here is an MD or..." yet you advise him not to take medication and go so far as saying it will make him worse. I'll venture the opinion that if this person is real and has these real problems that medication is probably his ONLY answer.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby pete5770 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:50 pm

shinobi wrote:Hello.

For years I suffer from deep chronic mental fatigue.


How many reputable MD's have diagnosed you with this condition? For that matter has anyone, other than yourself, diagnosed you with this "deep chronic mental fatigue"? Hate to say it but it sounds like boredom / depression to me.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby sengtsan » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:29 am

pete5770 wrote:
sengtsan wrote:
Don't take anti-depressants unless you are strongly advised to do it by a Medical Doctor you trust and only if you mentally suffer beyond your control. Otherwise, avoid them they will worsen your condition.

...... no one here is a MD or TCM doctor. So we can only give you general advices.



Your second part claims "...no one here is an MD or..." yet you advise him not to take medication and go so far as saying it will make him worse. I'll venture the opinion that if this person is real and has these real problems that medication is probably his ONLY answer.


Please re-read carefully what I wrote and especially the word "Otherwise" in my text. I didn't say avoid them at all costs. I said take them if a MD strongly advise you to take them, OTHERWISE avoid them.

Why?

Because I think it is irresponsible for anyone to make a wild online diagnosis , not to say anything about giving a prescription. You are not a MD,you haven't seen him and yet you venture to say he should take anti-depressants. I can't believe you could write this:

pete5770 wrote:I'll venture the opinion that if this person is real and has these real problems that medication is probably his ONLY answer.


without hesitation or hindsight. Who are we behind our computers to have such definite judgement about people state of health and needs? It's unbelievable and irresponsible.

He didn't come here to receive a diagnosis. He came here to be advised about qigong.

He is in charge of hiw own health, let's honor his freedom and own capacity to assess whether he needs to receive more advice FROM A MD . Let's respect him and the way he chose to present him and his problem here.

Do you remember he says he is married? No one here knows him enough to venture any diagnosis nor to recommend taking meds.

This is common sense.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby shinobi » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:16 am

pete5770 wrote:
shinobi wrote:Hello.

For years I suffer from deep chronic mental fatigue.


How many reputable MD's have diagnosed you with this condition? For that matter has anyone, other than yourself, diagnosed you with this "deep chronic mental fatigue"? Hate to say it but it sounds like boredom / depression to me.


Hi. I have visited not only good MD's, but world class professors.
The amount of medical tests I did no one did. I want to tell you that most of
those conditions (like deep mental fatigue, ADD, fibromyalgia ... etc) are absolutely not treated with conventional medicine. They just tell you to cope with that condition. They test what they can (all possible blood tests) and throw you away to take care of yourself. For example, my mom, who suffer from arthritis, got nothing from her MD's only pain killers (which by the way destroys human liver ). When SHE decided to go to few sessions of korean acupancture, she got no joint pain for few months. From my personal expirience, and I am not joking, I can tell you that MD's actually laugh at those methods (TCM, qigong, korean acupancture, ayurveda). But those methods can actualy help people in a better way then pain killers or coping with the illness.
By the way, I got solution to my chronic mental fatigue in the past, drinking coffee all the day. This "solution" caused me nothing but troubles. I can hardly sleep when I'm caffinated. When I'm caffinated I got strange feeling like skin itching, extreme mood changes. If I miss my coffee, I feel atomic explotion in my head. Eventualy, I decided to quit "coffee way".
I passed a long way and decided to take my destiny in my own hands. There are a lot of cases with people with serious chronic medical conditions able to turn the wheel in the opposite direction by they stong will and motivation to change things.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby sengtsan » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:31 am

shinobi wrote:Hi. I have visited not only good MD's, but world class professors.
The amount of medical tests I did no one did. I want to tell you that most of
those conditions (like deep mental fatigue, ADD, fibromyalgia ... etc) are absolutely not treated with conventional medicine. They just tell you to cope with that condition. They test what they can (all possible blood tests) and throw you away to take care of yourself. For example, my mom, who suffer from arthritis, got nothing from her MD's only pain killers (which by the way destroys human liver ). When SHE decided to go to few sessions of korean acupancture, she got no joint pain for few months. From my personal expirience, and I am not joking, I can tell you that MD's actually laugh at those methods (TCM, qigong, korean acupancture, ayurveda). But those methods can actualy help people in a better way then pain killers or coping with the illness.
By the way, I got solution to my chronic mental fatigue in the past, drinking coffee all the day. This "solution" caused me nothing but troubles. I can hardly sleep when I'm caffinated. When I'm caffinated I got strange feeling like skin itching, extreme mood changes. If I miss my coffee, I feel atomic explotion in my head. Eventualy, I decided to quit "coffee way".
I passed a long way and decided to take my destiny in my own hands. There are a lot of cases with people with serious chronic medical conditions able to turn the wheel in the opposite direction by they stong will and motivation to change things.


Hi Shinobi,

Good to know that you have quit coffee, I myself fell into the same trap. It weakens the adrenals- taxes a lot and exhausts the kidney yin qi and puts your liver on fire, so it seems to give some relief but actually makes things worse. Zhan Zhuang replenishes the kidney qi. It is just a question of time.

Best qi
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:25 am

shinobi wrote:
pete5770 wrote: When SHE decided to go to few sessions of korean acupancture, she got no joint pain for few months. From my personal expirience, and I am not joking, I can tell you that MD's actually laugh at those methods (TCM, qigong, korean acupancture, ayurveda). But those methods can actualy help people in a better way then pain killers or coping with the illness.

mate, it isnt only doctors! I know a chiropractor who offers NAET (look into it. it is interesting), and does stick and go acupuncture (meaning, she sticks you and leaves for 30 minutes), and when i talked with her about qigong and taiji, i might as well have been talking about the moon being hollow (saw a documentary on that recently). Here is someone who makes her living with the stuff, and doesnt understand it (past a western "accepted" point).

Mate, the only thing I can say is, check the foods you eat. NAET may be an option. Allergies can manifest in more ways than just rash. Maybe you have an allergy to something you are eating or in your environment? I have no idea. What I know of NAET, having had sessions myself, it did some things for me, but i am not drastically out of balance. There was a young boy who, when he was brought to her, suffered from allergies to the air. Her mother had to literally cut the sleeper off the child every morning because he would bleed from all over his body, just being exposed to the air. I met him a year after he started treatments, and he looked normal. i have no idea mate. NAET sounds hokey, even to someone that has studied things for 20 years, but it does work. If you have no other options, it is another one. Just ask around to other NAET people to find a good one.

good luck
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby pete5770 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:37 am

sengtsan wrote:No one here knows him enough to venture any diagnosis nor to recommend taking meds.



Absolutely 100% correct. The key words here are NO ONE. Not me, not you, not them. So, how about we ALL agree to stop? If he is real and not a troll then none of us can help him.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby pete5770 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:48 am

shinobi wrote:The amount of medical tests I did no one did. I want to tell you that most of
those conditions (like deep mental fatigue, ADD, fibromyalgia ... etc) are absolutely not treated with conventional medicine. - From my personal expirience, and I am not joking, I can tell you that MD's actually laugh at those methods (TCM, qigong, korean acupancture, ayurveda). - If I miss my coffee, I feel atomic explotion in my head.


Anyone else on this forum starting to think "troll"?
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby sengtsan » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:53 am

pete5770 wrote: Anyone else on this forum starting to think "troll"?


Please let the moderators decide. Apart from not being a Medical Doctor, TCM doctor, we are not mods of this forum either. We are not here to control everything/one.

Best,
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby sengtsan » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:28 pm

pete5770 wrote:
sengtsan wrote:No one here knows him enough to venture any diagnosis nor to recommend taking meds.



Absolutely 100% correct. The key words here are NO ONE. Not me, not you, not them. So, how about we ALL agree to stop? If he is real and not a troll then none of us can help him.


This is a forum dedicated to Qigong. Why should we refrain talking and sharing about it?

Do you have a problem with the idea that qigong could do something for him?
Given your past posts here, I think so.

Please don't mistake making an online diagnosis, advising taking anti-depressants before having seen the person with responding to an advice request about a qigong practice he already decided to commit to and have begun.

If you are talking about trolling, my question would be: what was the real purpose of your posts in this topic? Are you trying to derail this thread?
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby pete5770 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:52 pm

sengtsan wrote:This is a forum dedicated to Qigong. Why should we refrain talking and sharing about it?

Do you have a problem with the idea that qigong could do something for him?

If you are talking about trolling, my question would be: what was the real purpose of your posts in this topic?


Talk about Qigong all you like but given this persons posts do you really think Qigong is going to help?

"Do you have a problem....". I won't go into my feelings about Qigong. I think everyone knows what I think of it.

"...real purpose of your posts....?" To get this person to see a real doctor. I'm talking MD and or shrink. Of course, this being dependent on him actually being as he describes.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby shinobi » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:53 pm

pete5770 wrote:Anyone else on this forum starting to think "troll"?


First, you advice me to take anti-depressants for fatigue (I don't understand what is the connection), then for no reason you insult me and call me a troll. If you cannot behave nice to people please stay off this topic !
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby sengtsan » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:52 pm

pete5770 wrote:
Talk about Qigong all you like but given this persons posts do you really think Qigong is going to help?


It helped me, it helped my mother, it helped my wife. I can't say about him. We'll have to wait.
Qigong implies work. I don't expect a magic bullet unlike people who hope that meds will relieve their symptoms overnight.

I suggest, dear Pete, that you adopt, as an experiment, a willing suspension of disbelief regarding what Qigong can do or not, and wait until shinobi comes back here with the results of his practice. Please note I did not write "a willing act of belief". I just suggest you may be open to a possibility.

Better, just enter into the practice of Eight pieces of brocarde as taught by Dr Yang (because I had some results from them and can't say about the others) and see for yourself. If you allow me another suggestion, go to your local libraray and pick up, if available Dr Yang book "the root of chinese qigong". Read it with the aforementioned willing suspension of disbelief and see that sports are just a kind of qigong (external) while meditation is an internal one. And you can add Dr Yang dvd's Understanding qigong 1, 2 and 4 to have lively and clear explanations. I sincerely hope your local library will have them.

Let's take the lower path of it:
Exercise is known by scientists to bring physical and mental health benefits.
Meditation is known by scientists to bring physical and mental health benefits.
If you combine a moderate exercise within meditative state, why wouldn't it bring benefits?
I am just offering these questions for you to ponder - within this willing suspension of disbelief I talk about. Don't run over your keyboard to respond and make this an endless thread. Please read, ponder, and try it.

pete5770 wrote:"Do you have a problem....". I won't go into my feelings about Qigong. I think everyone knows what I think of it.


Yes, and are you ready to consider that systematically redirecting shinobi to meds is just a consequence of the profound resistance you nourish towards the whole idea of qigong as physical/mental activity that can induces health benefits?

pete5770 wrote:"...real purpose of your posts....?" To get this person to see a real doctor. I'm talking MD and or shrink. Of course, this being dependent on him actually being as he describes.


Do you have any proof whatsoever that he didn't see a real doctor? I guess the answer is no.
Do you have any proof whatsoever that TCM doctors can't be real doctors? I guess the answer is no.

Can't you see that this is another bias that comes from your resistance to qigong?

He is an adult, works as an engineer, has a wife: don't you think he has enough mental, material and affective resources to take decisions about his own health, which include seeing MDs ?

He came here, explained his situation, asked for an advice related to qigong. This is it. Don't make it an underground war against qigong.

Best
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby pete5770 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:55 pm

sengtsan wrote: I just suggest you may be open to a possibility.

Exercise is known by scientists to bring physical and mental health benefits.
Meditation is known by scientists to bring physical and mental health benefits.

Yes, and are you ready to consider that systematically redirecting shinobi to meds is just a consequence of the profound resistance you nourish towards the whole idea of qigong as physical/mental activity that can induces health benefits?

Do you have any proof whatsoever that he didn't see a real doctor? I guess the answer is no.
Do you have any proof whatsoever that TCM doctors can't be real doctors?

Can't you see that this is another bias that comes from your resistance to qigong?

Don't make it an underground war against qigong.


"I suggest..." I am always open to possibilities.
"Exercise..." Couldn't agree more.
"Meditation...." Couldn't agree less. Can't see much in the way of getting things accomplished
by sitting around in a meditative state.
"... idea of Qigong..." As pure exercise / stretching I have no problem with it. As some cure all I think it's bunk.
".. real doctor..." I'm hoping that's who he's seeing and not relying on internet advise.
..another bias..." I have no problem with someone believing in Bigfoot. However, if you want me to believe, then show me. No one has shown me. It's been all claims.
"...underground war..." Oh hell no. I'm as above the ground as it gets. :wink:
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby sengtsan » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:12 pm

Pete,

As far as I can see you has thrown away my suggestion of wiiling suspension of disbelief. Well, it's up to you..

When it comes to meditation, have you heard about mindfulness ( which a form of meditation taken from buddhism)? It is taught in a US hospital since 1979 and scientific research found benefits associated with its practice : http://www.umassmed.edu/Content.aspx?id=42426

Please take the time to read.

If you want more information about the practice the Pr of Medicine who introduced it in USA is Jon Kabat Zinn. Pick up his groundbreaking book, title is : full catastrophe living.

So let's say, you have read, digested the above informations ( please be sure to explore the link, I trust you on this :) ). Without any reference to qi, you have some good reasons to believe that an internal practice like mindfulness meditation can bring benefits both mental and physical.

We can talk about qigong later so that you can take all the time needed to follow my link, read and ponder.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby Amaranth » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:21 pm

I have played Chess with people who have only played seriously for a few months and struggled, while also playing people who have played for 30+ years and easily won against them. My point is that the ones who improve are constantly seeking to improve by study and practice. The others are just 'playing'. The same is so with qigong and any system: you get out of it what you put into it. Asking yourself questions like 'How can I improve?' then answering your own question based on the knowledge you have helps, but do not discount knowledge from those who have been there. Once you choose a path, follow it: practice. Realize that you may find a better way on your journey, so be adaptable, but give things a chance... jumping around from method to method is like having a strategy in a chess game, and working so hard to build it up, then blatantly changing it: wasting all of your previous effort. If I am at fault for not improving as much as I could have - it is from this (with qigong). My understanding is vast though, because I contently try new methods and search for the root of their effectiveness... If I stuck with what I know works... I would perhaps be a great master by now. Anyway - good luck. :)
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