Ability testing?

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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat May 05, 2012 1:04 pm

sub_human wrote:

Coincidentally, I agree with very little you've posted, because it's based on ur emotions, & I was talking (in general), as to why people Practice, Spar, Test, etc..

My post centered on the root of these acts & were as brief as possible, as not to cloud the point (topic) with personal baggage.



Why play baseball game if you know the outcome? (ie: the truth)
We don't, so 2 teams must match up, to know the truth, because on paper One can only know so much about One's self before they must face the reality...

Before hand.. you can only lie to urself. Afterward.. (win or lose) u have answer about urself.

Also, If you do not challenge urself (in anything you do in life), then how do you go about finding the answers? (Know urself.. & u will be at ur fullest potential.)


Everything is an internal art..




*all of this was explained in my first post


That is the beauty of martial arts. There are many paths. And you did not explain anything. Putting words on a screen is not explaining. explaining is using words to make a coherent thought that others UNDERSTAND.

I love the idea you put! You think that winning in sparring is truth? That is part of the delusion! There is NEVER a winner in a fight/confrontation, unless BOTH walk away without a confrontation. Sparring is a totally messed up paradigm, and one that you cant see (which is a paradigm, btw). It teaches nothing about one's ability to deal with a real threat on the street. It in fact, gives one a false sense of security. That you disagree means you are very much a part of that paradigm. It is like a human trying to explain to a fish that there is another way to get oxygen.

And congrats! pete likes your ideas! That says a lot! :)
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Sat May 05, 2012 1:55 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:
sub_human wrote:

Coincidentally, I agree with very little you've posted, because it's based on ur emotions, & I was talking (in general), as to why people Practice, Spar, Test, etc..

My post centered on the root of these acts & were as brief as possible, as not to cloud the point (topic) with personal baggage.



Why play baseball game if you know the outcome? (ie: the truth)
We don't, so 2 teams must match up, to know the truth, because on paper One can only know so much about One's self before they must face the reality...

Before hand.. you can only lie to urself. Afterward.. (win or lose) u have answer about urself.

Also, If you do not challenge urself (in anything you do in life), then how do you go about finding the answers? (Know urself.. & u will be at ur fullest potential.)


Everything is an internal art..




*all of this was explained in my first post


That is the beauty of martial arts. There are many paths. And you did not explain anything. Putting words on a screen is not explaining. explaining is using words to make a coherent thought that others UNDERSTAND.

I love the idea you put! You think that winning in sparring is truth? That is part of the delusion! There is NEVER a winner in a fight/confrontation, unless BOTH walk away without a confrontation. Sparring is a totally messed up paradigm, and one that you cant see (which is a paradigm, btw). It teaches nothing about one's ability to deal with a real threat on the street. It in fact, gives one a false sense of security. That you disagree means you are very much a part of that paradigm. It is like a human trying to explain to a fish that there is another way to get oxygen.

And congrats! pete likes your ideas! That says a lot! :)


Gonna have to disagree with ya "wp.....". If I fight someone and I "win" then the truth of the matter is that, in my mind and most others, I have won. Your "non confrontation", while being a noble idea(in some peoples minds, not mine), hasn't happened since the big bang. The universe and our world revolve around confrontation. The moons gravity confronts the oceans and tides happen. Gasoline confronts a spark plug and a car moves. Bullets are on a confrontational course with soldiers and people may die. I go to work in the morning and confront a set of new Architects drawings for a new building and I will try to overcome my intial lack of understanding with one of "I think I'm beginning to see the light", so to speak. Black holes confront stars or whole galaxies. This is a confrontational universe. The "delusion" is that it isn't.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat May 05, 2012 6:12 pm

pete5770 wrote:
Gonna have to disagree with ya "wp.....". If I fight someone and I "win" then the truth of the matter is that, in my mind and most others, I have won. ...Black holes confront stars or whole galaxies. This is a confrontational universe. The "delusion" is that it isn't.

I will take that as a sign that indeed, i am in the right direction!

Is there confrontation in the universe? sure! That is why I do taiji. It is sad that, after 40 years of tai chi, you still dont see that. mate, you need a new teacher... or maybe, just learn what real martial art is.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Sat May 05, 2012 7:56 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:
pete5770 wrote:
Gonna have to disagree with ya "wp.....". If I fight someone and I "win" then the truth of the matter is that, in my mind and most others, I have won. ...Black holes confront stars or whole galaxies. This is a confrontational universe. The "delusion" is that it isn't.

I will take that as a sign that indeed, i am in the right direction!

Is there confrontation in the universe? sure! That is why I do taiji. It is sad that, after 40 years of tai chi, you still dont see that. mate, you need a new teacher... or maybe, just learn what real martial art is.


Well, I'm all eyes and ears. Go ahead and tell me "....what real martial art.." is. I doubt I'll agree with you(go figure) but this is a forum and your ideas count, just like mine.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat May 05, 2012 10:10 pm

pete5770 wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote:
Well, I'm all eyes and ears. Go ahead and tell me "....what real martial art.." is. I doubt I'll agree with you(go figure) but this is a forum and your ideas count, just like mine.


It is my opinion that martial art is a long dead word. As soon as the Japanese created DO versions of their arts, it died. There are small parcels of it left, but they are rare today. When you go to a class and the teacher says "Today we are going to work on "such and such technique"", you arent in a martial art. A martial art, a real one, was designed for ONE PURPOSE: to keep the person and their families a live, period. I doubt that anyone could name more than 1 or 2 schools in a state or province that could make that claim today.

Today, a martial art is a joke. "I know karate!" or "My hands are registered with the police" will get you killed today. How did this happen? Was it that these arts were always as crappy as they are today? Was it that Yang Luchan was just as good as that old man struggling through the Yang form today, its just that the entire country of China had worse fighters? NO! Something happened to the arts.

To find a real martial art today, you need to look for something else. Like sub_human put it, I have put it in ALL my posts on this thread. :D Erle taught that a martial art had a few purposes, and NONE were for fighting! They were methods to learn co-ordination, balance and timing. That was it. Watching a 6th degree black belt get taken out in the streets by a street fighter, we see that is exactly what they are! He said that you need to practice methods to take those attributes into reflex, so that, if you are jumped on the street, where you have 0 seconds to think about the situation, you have a 50/50 chance (less if they have a knife or weapon).

To bring this back on topic, if that is the reality of a self defence situation (what i just put above), how does sparring, where there is a beginning and a specified area, how does that teach you about self defence? It teaches you about balance, coordination and timing (some will say technique, but watch sparring matches. Regardless of style, the majority (not all) will look very similar. Why? I answered that too.

It may have emotion in it, but its real. No one wins when one wins. The only way anyone wins is when they both win. I was watching a woman's mma fight where one woman won by arm barring another (actually breaking the arm). How is that a win? The woman never tapped. The referee stopped the fight, but she lost. How does that woman live with that (right, it is sociopathic behavior! got it). The score sheet says one thing, but the reality is another.

sub_human, i understand you are a sport guy. I get that. sport is sport. It is not real! In real life, no one cares about who can hit a ball over the fence! It is a marketing trick that people care about this! (same with hockey, soccer, football, tennis, etc). Sparring is the same. If you feel you must prove it to yourself, that is great. Do it. But you and I are not talking about the same thing.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Sun May 06, 2012 8:11 am

wpgtaiji wrote:
pete5770 wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote:
Well, I'm all eyes and ears. Go ahead and tell me "....what real martial art.." is. I doubt I'll agree with you(go figure) but this is a forum and your ideas count, just like mine.


It is my opinion that martial art is a long dead word. As soon as the Japanese created DO versions of their arts, it died. There are small parcels of it left, but they are rare today. When you go to a class and the teacher says "Today we are going to work on "such and such technique"", you arent in a martial art. A martial art, a real one, was designed for ONE PURPOSE: to keep the person and their families a live, period. I doubt that anyone could name more than 1 or 2 schools in a state or province that could make that claim today.

Today, a martial art is a joke. "I know karate!" or "My hands are registered with the police" will get you killed today. How did this happen? Was it that these arts were always as crappy as they are today? Was it that Yang Luchan was just as good as that old man struggling through the Yang form today, its just that the entire country of China had worse fighters? NO! Something happened to the arts.

To find a real martial art today, you need to look for something else. Like sub_human put it, I have put it in ALL my posts on this thread. :D Erle taught that a martial art had a few purposes, and NONE were for fighting! They were methods to learn co-ordination, balance and timing. That was it. Watching a 6th degree black belt get taken out in the streets by a street fighter, we see that is exactly what they are! He said that you need to practice methods to take those attributes into reflex, so that, if you are jumped on the street, where you have 0 seconds to think about the situation, you have a 50/50 chance (less if they have a knife or weapon).

To bring this back on topic, if that is the reality of a self defence situation (what i just put above), how does sparring, where there is a beginning and a specified area, how does that teach you about self defence? It teaches you about balance, coordination and timing (some will say technique, but watch sparring matches. Regardless of style, the majority (not all) will look very similar. Why? I answered that too.

It may have emotion in it, but its real. No one wins when one wins. The only way anyone wins is when they both win. I was watching a woman's mma fight where one woman won by arm barring another (actually breaking the arm). How is that a win? The woman never tapped. The referee stopped the fight, but she lost. How does that woman live with that (right, it is sociopathic behavior! got it). The score sheet says one thing, but the reality is another.

sub_human, i understand you are a sport guy. I get that. sport is sport. It is not real! In real life, no one cares about who can hit a ball over the fence! It is a marketing trick that people care about this! (same with hockey, soccer, football, tennis, etc). Sparring is the same. If you feel you must prove it to yourself, that is great. Do it. But you and I are not talking about the same thing.


You make some good comments. Some I agree with, some I don't, but that's what makes the world go round. I would be a pretty boring place if we all thought and acted alike. I do thnk you make too little of sports. However your "real fighting", is right on the money. Sports are a sort of social thing, whether you actually play or go to watch. You see and meet people either way and maybe it is part hype and marketing but at least you're out there dealing with the world and not holed up living like a hermit. I love cycling and downhill skiing and am always trying to find someone to hit the slopes or go riding with me. Good company, great fun, who could ask for more? As for real fighting, I was in the Navy and somehow, for some reason, got taken out cold by a flying ashtray to the head in some sleazy Phillipine bar. Never even got out of my chair. Guess you really couldn't call that a fight but it does illustrate the nature of your "real" fight, more or less. I another incident I was attacked by an enemy soldier with a bayonet. I don't recall a lot about it except for an intense struggle in the mud and a shot from a buddy that probably saved my life. Absolutely nothing "martial art" about any of the 15 or so seconds that it lasted, and I can't even say for sure if it was 15 seconds or an hour.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun May 06, 2012 10:29 am

See, now you are getting the idea.

Sport is sport, and there is nothing wrong with it, on its surface. You dont see baseball players starting fights because they can swing a bat (arguably, just as much self defence you get from most martial arts schools). Why do we see karate people thinking they are special (in the fighting arena) when they are merely sport athletes? They have been duped.

When you really start to dig in to things, some things stand out and slap you right in the face. I wont get into them here (but realize that the modern DO movement in Japan has had a far reaching affect on ALL martial arts).

Self defence is different, and you cant mix the two activities. Unfortunately, people have been lead to believe that they are the same (how many martial artists teach self defence? )

In our classes, there is all the outer trimmings of camaraderie because, literally, we are there to help each other. Competition, when we are talking about self defence, should never be part of the equation (where there is a winner / loser).

sub_human seems to be missing in action. I cannot wait for another vague and unexplained statement.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Sun May 06, 2012 11:21 am

wpgtaiji wrote:See, now you are getting the idea.

Sport is sport, and there is nothing wrong with it, on its surface. You dont see baseball players starting fights because they can swing a bat (arguably, just as much self defence you get from most martial arts schools). Why do we see karate people thinking they are special (in the fighting arena) when they are merely sport athletes? They have been duped.

When you really start to dig in to things, some things stand out and slap you right in the face. I wont get into them here (but realize that the modern DO movement in Japan has had a far reaching affect on ALL martial arts).

Self defence is different, and you cant mix the two activities. Unfortunately, people have been lead to believe that they are the same (how many martial artists teach self defence? )

In our classes, there is all the outer trimmings of camaraderie because, literally, we are there to help each other. Competition, when we are talking about self defence, should never be part of the equation (where there is a winner / loser).

sub_human seems to be missing in action. I cannot wait for another vague and unexplained statement.


I would counter and say that sport athletes, if they are good enough, can make a whole bunch of money "playing games" that they love. Nothing wrong with that, and it involves having to "win".
The old saying "everybody likes a winner" certainly applies to most of humanity. Maybe sports are
shallow, so to speak, but we enjoy them and isn't that enough?
As for self defence, I believe that there is a winner and a loser and you don't want to be the loser.
How you train for this type of thing(enemy soldier sneaking up on you with a knife) is a very vague topic simply because of the millions of options and circumstanes that are presented in the actual "event". My advise for self defence is to become as physically strong as you can and learn to RUN(not jog - RUN).
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun May 06, 2012 12:32 pm

pete5770 wrote:How you train for this type of thing(enemy soldier sneaking up on you with a knife) is a very vague topic simply because of the millions of options and circumstanes that are presented in the actual "event". My advise for self defence is to become as physically strong as you can and learn to RUN(not jog - RUN).


It is clear to me that you have not understood much of what i put (your first sentence here). You are right, there are millions of "techniques" that could be used, that is why self defence training that is taught is bull. That said, there are relatively few ways that someone can attack WITH POWER, which is the key difference. The vague-ness you wonder about is your lack of understanding of this. If i recall correctly, I wrote this in my first post.

"Video killed the radio star", and "sports killed the martial artist"! If that is your cup of tea, great. Good for you mate. Just dont teach people self defence, or claim that anything you teach is useful outside the ring or class. The lack of understanding of this simple idea has caused an enormous degradation of the fighting arts in the last 100 years.

And again, you misunderstood everything about what I wrote. IF a fight happens, there is no winner. However, we train to not be the one killed. Regardless of the outcome (if we arent killed, for example), if the attacker was a very serious threat, and in his attack, dies, then both have lost. Any other circumstance is not worth the fight in the first place, and shows a failure on the part of the "martial artist" for keeping other people out of harms way.

This is interesting. How many times can i say the exact same thing before it sinks in? nevermind, its pete.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby John the Monkey mind » Sun May 06, 2012 1:41 pm

Interestingly Martial Artist I know who have had a lot of real fights use traditional movements rather than kick boxing type moves.
I believe that as they have had a few fights they start reacting more within the form than seizing up through fear. Sparing seems to be no substitute to real experiences.
The first real fight (purely in self defence after trying every way out I add and there is no chance I would pick a fight with a gang of people like that) on the street after my training opened my eyes. Kick boxing would not help but traditional movement works well if you can not freeze up, still it is almost impossible to be ready for the real thing mentally and yes I had been doing a fair bit of sparing before the incident.

I have not had anything so unpleasant since but I feel I would be far less the rabbit in the headlights this time.

My conclusion for practical fighting after that was rooting, rooting, rooting, rooting and rooting.
If I don't fall over I am sufficiently skilled to not be knocked over by most people. If I am not pushed over or knocked over I should get out of it ok as long as no knives are involved.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun May 06, 2012 6:40 pm

pete5770 wrote:
I'm going to assume that you blame the entire "martial arts world" and specifically myself for the "enormous degradation"?

I dont blame anyone. It is a reality. It is important that people operate with understanding, then there is no delusions.
As for ".. both have lost." No, ones dead from a gunshot wound(loser) and the other DOESN'T have a bayonet stuck in him(winner). I don't see it any other way. :wink:

Maybe you should talk to some of the "winners" from war. See how they feel about their "win". pete, survival is one thing, and if it comes down and there is no way out and the choice is him or me/my family, heaven help them. Unfortunately, that isnt a win, even though it may be a survival. pete, from what you have posted on the YMAA forums, i dont expect you to understand. To do that, you have to actually work with ideas that are not obvious (and you seem to need the obvious and concrete).

John, I like your input :) I think kick boxing ranks up there with ballet dancing (ok, a bit harsh! my apologies).
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Mon May 21, 2012 9:21 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:
pete5770 wrote:
I'm going to assume that you blame the entire "martial arts world" and specifically myself for the "enormous degradation"?

I dont blame anyone. It is a reality. It is important that people operate with understanding, then there is no delusions.
As for ".. both have lost." No, ones dead from a gunshot wound(loser) and the other DOESN'T have a bayonet stuck in him(winner). I don't see it any other way. :wink:

Maybe you should talk to some of the "winners" from war. See how they feel about their "win". pete, survival is one thing, and if it comes down and there is no way out and the choice is him or me/my family, heaven help them. Unfortunately, that isnt a win, even though it may be a survival. pete, from what you have posted on the YMAA forums, i dont expect you to understand. To do that, you have to actually work with ideas that are not obvious (and you seem to need the obvious and concrete).



All I can say is talk to some of the "winners" and "losers" yourself. I think you'll find that pretty much to a man everyone who fought in WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and all the others, consider themselves either winners and losers. Depending on the side they were on, of course, and how they viewed the wars outcome. The world is full of winners and losers in all walks of life.
As for "concrete" I would remind you of "The Three little Pigs" and how the need for something concrete(substantial) played a major roll in winners and losers in that story.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Mon May 21, 2012 10:24 pm

pete5770 wrote:All I can say is ...


sorry mate, that is ALL YOU COULD HAVE SAID. It is confounding to me to realize that you really have no clue about much... Ignorance is bliss, then you mate, are the queen of blissfulness.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Tue May 22, 2012 6:57 am

wpgtaiji wrote:
pete5770 wrote:All I can say is ...


sorry mate, that is ALL YOU COULD HAVE SAID. It is confounding to me to realize that you really have no clue about much... Ignorance is bliss, then you mate, are the queen of blissfulness.


I know what you're trying to tell me. You have this NOBLE thought about wars and such and in it everyone is a loser. It's a noble thought because everyone is supposed to be peace loving and against war and feel bad about being in a war. This is your reality, or at least the reality you think you want people to have. It's not a bad idea. In fact it's a good idea. Only problem is that the real reality of it is that whole bunches of people are proud of their military service. I know that's wrong, in your way of thinking, but it's YOUR way of thinking and not the rest of the worlds. It's right for you but doesn't apply to everyone. Just because you and or I think something is right doesn't mean it's the worlds view of things.
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue May 22, 2012 10:16 am

no pete, you dont have any idea what i am refering too.

War is not the same as two people going at it. Unless there is a real and true threat of being killed or seriously injured to yourself or someone else, then there is no reason to fight, and if you do, you wasted your training.

If, on the other hand, life is seriously threatened, then make sure you are the one to walk away.

However, you seem to imply that fighting to win is the reason, and it is not. Being a coward is more important when serious injury is NOT the threat, as putting someone else down could put you in jail.

Good though that you are still arguing a topic that the rest of us left months ago (exaggeration).

Again, why you claim you do internal arts is beyond me. by the way, if there are any more questions about this idea, maybe you should find and look through ALL the information at the World Taiji Boxing Association (WTBA) website. They have just about all the ideas up somewhere on the site (for free). Then maybe you would understand the lunacy of your actions.. probably not. oh well...
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Re: Ability testing?

Postby pete5770 » Tue May 22, 2012 12:34 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:no pete, you dont have any idea what i am refering too.



I'm sure I don't because, you said so. :wink:
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