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Whereas Kendo developed out of the 'all-in' swordsmanship of the Samurai, Western fencing developed out of duelling, with all its attendant conventions.
What is the best self defense, Kendo or Fencing? I want the best self defense to practice.
Yeah i really agree with you sonbakler!.. I must have a pepper spray dude!., Any idea where I can buy one?
pete5770 wrote:Josh Young wrote:
Both Kendo and fencing are weapon sports and are nearly worthless for self defense.
So, if I know how to use, oh say a Tai Chi staff, and I get set upon by someone intent on doing me harm, it would do me no good to pick up a sturdy stick or piece of pipe because these things could be considered weapons "...and are nearly worthless for self defense." This sort of brings up the question of whether guns, knifes, rocket launchers, tanks, or even a big rock are all "... nearly worthless ....".
pete5770 wrote:So, if I know how to use, oh say a Tai Chi staff, and I get set upon by someone intent on doing me harm, it would do me no good to pick up a sturdy stick or piece of pipe because these things could be considered weapons "...and are nearly worthless for self defense." This sort of brings up the question of whether guns, knifes, rocket launchers, tanks, or even a big rock are all "... nearly worthless ....".
Josh Young wrote:pete5770 wrote:So, if I know how to use, oh say a Tai Chi staff, and I get set upon by someone intent on doing me harm, it would do me no good to pick up a sturdy stick or piece of pipe because these things could be considered weapons "...and are nearly worthless for self defense." This sort of brings up the question of whether guns, knifes, rocket launchers, tanks, or even a big rock are all "... nearly worthless ....".
You seem to have misread what I was stating.
I said "
Both Kendo and fencing are weapon sports and are nearly worthless for self defense."
I did not say weapons were no good for self defense, or that they were nearly worthless, but that weapon "sports" are nearly worthless for self defense. This is because they have become sporting methods largely based upon points and do not resemble their martial ancestors.
Taiji weapon methods are quite good for self defense, as are several staff and stick weapons. Sporting systems however are not as ideal. The same issue comes up with point based sparring without weapons actually. Sporting systems can teach some martial skills but are nearly worthless for defense, specifically against a non-sporting system.
Consider modern fencing with foil, something I've done a bit of, to score a point you basically touch/hit any part of the torso, this simply will not cut it for self defense and considering that the foil is a thrust based weapon many of the moves that earn a point in fencing are worthless for self defense.
pete5770 wrote: I'm pretty sure that if I was a good fencer I could, at the very least, keep you or an attacker at bay by simply picking up a stick or rod and using it like a foil. As a matter of fact I'm betting I could do serious damage to you with said stick. So how does that make the sport of fencing useless for self defence?
Josh Young wrote:pete5770 wrote: I'm pretty sure that if I was a good fencer I could, at the very least, keep you or an attacker at bay by simply picking up a stick or rod and using it like a foil. As a matter of fact I'm betting I could do serious damage to you with said stick. So how does that make the sport of fencing useless for self defence?
You can speculate all you want, maybe you would be able to defend yourself, but maybe not, and against who?
You can straw man my claim that it is nearly worthless for self defense into the idea that it is useless, but useless is your word not mine and I implied that fencing is indeed slightly useful for self defense, but only slightly. I don't know if you have any fencing experience, but it seems that you do not.
My fencing teacher was an Olympic athlete who had obtained Bronze and Silver. She was of the opinion it was not particularly useful for self defense and that it was quite far removed from the roots it had of dueling. Dueling is not exactly self defense either, it relates to it but is rather distinct in some ways...
Also in fencing there is a huge issue, you see the players often close the gap, this is in Kendo too, a fencing player or kendo player too close cannot be hit with the weapon, once you have closed in to the player you have evaded their weapon based attack. In terms of self defense this is a huge issue because sport fencing lacks a way to deal with this. Someone can get in close and then the sword or stick becomes a huge disadvantage and even a distraction. Against a good boxer a sport fencer is at a huge disadvantage in close range combat, while in the martial systems there is a lot devoted to how to solve this problem.
If I had a foil like sword like object and was being attacked I would never use any western fencing moves. it might be wiser to give the foil like object to my attacker and then go in close with elbow or shoulder.
My point is that sporting systems are just that and while they may be slightly useful in self defense they are nearly worthless when compared to a real martial art system.
Josh Young wrote:Pete all you are doing is speculating.
pete5770 wrote:Let me get this straight. You're so confident in your abilites that you could give me a foil / sword / big stick / iron rod and I wouldn't be able to hurt you with them because, after all, they are only weapons and ALL you have to do is move in on me with a shoulder.
A word of advice, or two, here. Get over yourself before ya get killed and you are not an action hero or in an action hero movie. Oh wait, you know Tai Chi and that makes all the difference against someone swinging an iron pipe at you.
Josh Young wrote:pete5770 wrote:Let me get this straight. You're so confident in your abilites that you could give me a foil / sword / big stick / iron rod and I wouldn't be able to hurt you with them because, after all, they are only weapons and ALL you have to do is move in on me with a shoulder.
If you only had western fencing training, yes I would not worry about you hurting me if you had a stick. If you had a real sword it would be a bit more serious and I would flee. If I had a sword as well, and all you had was western fencing... Well good luck.
Weapons are kind of nice, but if you can't use them well they are kind of a distraction and you are better off without them assuming you have some empty hand skill.A word of advice, or two, here. Get over yourself before ya get killed and you are not an action hero or in an action hero movie. Oh wait, you know Tai Chi and that makes all the difference against someone swinging an iron pipe at you.
Yeah, taiji does make a difference against someone attacking you with something like an iron pipe.
Chances are I would take it from you, especially if you tried to use it against me like a foil.
Now if you hit me with something like a sucker punch, sure I am screwed, but in terms of me knowing the attack is coming you would be in serious trouble. If you are an average person you have almost no chance against me even if you have a baseball bat, but you are a skilled martial artist I could lose.
You can argue and speculate, even insult if you like, but yeah western fencing systems are not that great for self defense, nor is kendo for that matter. Having had lessons in both I am not speaking from total inexperience. Sure weapons are nice, but the controversy here is not about weapons , it is about weapons systems and this difference between sport fighting systems and systems concerned with survival in martial combat.
I have a lot of weapons training Pete. The idea of facing you while you wield an iron pipe totally amuses me. If you can beat me it would make my day, even if you kill me, I love to be defeated and you would have earned it, which pleases me.
However if you wield a weapon like you wield words... then you will only make hasty mistakes in estimating those you encounter.
If you like we can do some weapons work or push hands some time, friendly competition would be best, it would be a lot of fun. If you even go to California, Montana or Utah let me know and you can test your theory about this subject.
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