cotton palm training?

[Dao Ming Jin]

interesting. I looked at that web page, and saw some of the guy's stances....It looks remarkably similar to some Xingyiquan forms.

[jellybean]

cotton palm (mian zoun) it's not really a form or style. It's more like a striking method used mostly with internal styles. Wu Dang's Xin Yi, Ba Qua, Tai Ji all uses this technique.

It's main force is develope through the twisting of shoulder to elbow to wrist to palm (some times adding the mid and lower body movements aswell). More or less with alittle feeling of swirling. Pushing the softness into sudden burst.

The power behind mian zoun is created in a sudden smuch during contact. It does not require a distance for whining. Think of it as the oppostie of a straight punch

straight punch => firm! firm! ... loose
cotton palm => loose loose ... firm!

[qwackdragon]

Thanks Jellybean,

Sounds similer to what Leung Shum explained when i asked him a few weeks ago. A striking training using short soft movements, similer to short jing

[BaguaMonk]

fa jing. If you can move your whole body in unison, generating this type of power is not that difficult. But at the much higher levels (internal damage, etc.), much more is needed than just good body mechanics. Some people in the past still called this "iron palm" (the IMA version) because of how the pain felt, and the way it affected those struck, or the ability to break bricks with relatively no tension (by slapping). But cotton is definitely more

Ever try doing the Bagua Tea Cup excercises? Those are pretty good, try them at both slow and high speeds, using your legs, waist, elbows, wrists, ,fingers to twist and undulate, and whip about eventually. You'd be surprised at how much one of these would hurt at the kidneys. The same kind of whipping power can be used with a ridge hand, knife hand, fingers, back of palm, front of palm, side of palm, heel of palm, etc. Bagua is limitless.

But one of the best examples I've seen of Cotton it is the cupped (precussion) palm of bagua. Since it doesn't come straight forward (like a heel palm, or finger jab), but twists as described in post about and "slaps" with a slightly cupped hand. It can sound, and feel like a deep heavy "thud"' or a quick whippy "snap"'

[gmc]

"cotton palm (mian zoun) it's not really a form or style. It's more like a striking method used mostly with internal styles. Wu Dang's Xin Yi, Ba Qua, Tai Ji all uses this technique. "

Jellybean you are not correct. Cotton palm (mian zhang or mian zhang quan) is most definitely a style, which is over 400 years old. The style emphasizes striking with palms, fast changes, and of course the strikes, kicks, throws and locks found in other styles of CMA.

[gmc]

History of Mian Zhang Quan


EDITOR’S NOTE: This article traces Mian Zhang Quan , known as “Continuous Palm Boxing”back to it’s beginnings. When I learned this style from Master Chen Junhao, I never learned all the history, due to our language barrier. My friend Wang Xiaoguang often spent time discussing martial arts with Master Chen Junhao. Wang’s efforts in researching and sharing the information that our teacher Chen Junhao had discussed, has been a great gift for anyone interested in the old styles of Chinese Martial Arts.

There are several styles of Mian Zhang Quan in the Chinese Martial Arts (CMA). The style that we learned from Master Chen Junhao is the style that is mainly practiced in Shanxi Province. This branch of Mian Zhang Quan was first taught by Mr. Changde Zuo. Mr. Zuo was born in 1809 in Xiaozi Qu Village, Wenshui County of Shanxi Province. He was the second child in his family, and very famous for his martial art in “South 6, North 7, 13 Provinces”. For that reason, he was nicknamed Zuo (family name) Er (the second) Ba (martial artist). When he was very young, Zuo studied the martial art called Tan Tui (Springing Leg) with his father. When Zuo Er Ba grew up, he was quite tall and blessed with incredible strength. When Zuo was 17 years old, his father brought him to Beijing to start a wagon wheel and axle business. While in Beijing, Zuo Er Ba met a man named Zhang Demao, known as the “White Eyebrow Taoist”. Zhang Demao learned martial arts from his father, Zhang Jinghe, who was known as “Martial Art God & Famous Master”. This was during the Kangxi Time (1661-1722) in the Qing Dynasty. Zuo Er Ba studied Mian Zhang Chuan from Zhang Demao, for eight years. Whenever he had time, Zuo Er Ba would practice martial arts, and he became a master of Mian Zhang Quan and Tan Tui.

Around this time, Mr. Zhang recommended Zuo for a position, managing security guide service company in SuZhou. For the next thirty years, Zuo Er Ba worked as a security guide, traveling all over China and earning a reputation as one of the best. SuZhou was famous for its embroidery, and this embroidery was the tribute to the Emperor at that time. In 1844, Zuo Er Ba guided the tribute to Beijing and was awarded the Yellow Mandarin Jacket from the Emperor himself. At that time in China, the Yellow Mandarin Jacket was the highest award a normal person could receive. The Emperor awarded this to Mr. Zuo , along with a silk banner. Mr. Wang Zhengchin was another famous security guide at the time. During one mission, he lost the property under his protection but gained it back with Mr. Zuo’s help. After that incident, they became brothers and taught their martial arts to each other. Wang learned Tan Tui and Mian Zhang Chuan from Zuo, and Zuo learned Spear from Wang. Wang was five years older than Zuo and there is a famous saying “Wang’s spear, Dai’s fist, and Zuo’s springing leg are undefeated”. (NOTE: Wang refers to Wang Zhengchin and Dai is from the famous Dai’s Xingyi).

In the TongZi time of the Qing Dynasty, Zuo Er Ba retired from the security business, and returned to his home town Wenshui County, Shanxi Province. He taught martial arts in his spare time, and many people from the surrounding area came to learn from him. Among those who learned from him, his grandson Zuo Binxin was the best student. Zuo Binxin taught his martial art to Mr. Li Yuxiu. Li Yuxiu entered the Chinese Martial Arts Competition of 1931, where he won the prize and became a famous Master in Shanxi Province. Our teacher Master Chen JunHao learned Tan Tui and Mian Zhang Chuan from Li Yuxiu, in the 1950’s of last century.

[BaguaMonk]

It is both a seperate style, and a "method" in different IMA's. From the description it sounds a bit like Bagua. I know all these arts influenced eachother at some point in time, I'm just wondering what the similarties are. Especially with it supposedly being Taoist (as all masters who didn't want to be specific about where there art came from said).

[jellybean]

Thanks for the history gmc.
there could be a misunderstanding here...
but have you seen how it works? I have, I've gotten blow by a few also

Let me put it this way
Compare Mian Zhang as Pao Quan, one of the five elemental fist (Wu Xin Quan) from Xin Yi
Pao Quan alone has at least six different changes, but Pao Quan isn't a style.
Wu Xin Quan itself isn't a style either
With the 12 basic forms and the 10 real forms of Xeen Yi Le Hu Quain you have the complete set of the original Xin Yi Quan(a style).

Mian Zhang Duan Da Fa (Cotton Palm Short Distance Applying Method)
is pretty much teh method of using Main Zhang
Ba Gua Zhang has Eight big palms and Eight small palms
and Mian Zhang is listed as one of them along with Chwan Zhang(through palm?) and etc.

don't wanna rage argguments but the translation and our crossing point not be in perfect shape