Anything???

Discuss and share your injury experiences, your healing process and methods. Help your fellow students recover. Please stay on topic.

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Re: Anything???

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:00 pm

you think pete is looking at this with an "open" mind? wow...

(note, that was directed at you.. and pete - just so we are clear) LOL
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Re: Anything???

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:29 am

pete, i know you do. Just some of the comments you have made make it appear that, regardless of the evidence in front of you, you wouldnt believe in hocky pocky qi!

Like i said, the way people get hung up, and i admit that it is the fault of con-artist teachers (either knowingly or unknowingly mislead by their teachers) to prey on peoples' longing for super human powers! qi is not that. If one expects it to be, i can see why they are left disappointed.

like so many things, the fault is not in the beast, but one's interpretation of the beast.

As to your search, mate, 99% of qigong people (and taiji people) THINK they know it, but really they dont. And it is in the smallest things! Just myself, 2 days ago, I had a senior correct my qigong practice. One tiny, almost inperceptible adjustment of my neck changed the whole practice! Literally, i was off by fractions of an inch! Saddly, most people could not correct this, so what chance do their students have in getting it "right"?

Watch youtube qigong videos! It is hilarious! Posters say "i can feel the qi"! Really? but the body is so far off (not by fractions of an inch, but meters!) there is no way the qi can flow through the blocks created by the postures (remember, look at qi like water and meridians like pipes.. crink the pipe = no flow). Funny stuff.

For people searching for truths, the internal martial arts world is a maze of confusion and worse, out right lies! Yes, a negative view of things (sorry chh), but honestly, if you tell people that "everything has merit", and people go out and do it, like pete, and get no results because there is no way that method could give results, they paint the whole thing in a negative way. It is all of our responsibilities to learn it right and teach it right.

enough of the lecture! LOL back to your regularly scheduled ranting!.. um, i mean discussing.
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Re: Anything???

Postby wpgtaiji » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:01 pm

pete5770 wrote:
wpgtaiji wrote:

As to your search, .......

For people searching for truths, ................. like pete, and get no results because there is no way that method could give results, they paint the whole thing in a negative way.


I think you misunderstand me. I'm not, nor have I ever been, searching for Qigong or it's truths
or fallacies. All I'm saying is that it hasn't been shown to me or proven to my satisfaction and I'm not about to spend what time I have left in this life chasing Bigfoot simply because a "true believer" says I should. It's up to the "true believer" to provide proof of existence to me before I'll help out by lacing up my hiking boots, shouldering a heavy pack, and heading for the pacific Northwest.

Mate, i didnt mean about qigong! I meant TRUTH in the most real terms. Truth about life, love, the pursuit of happiness.

And about qigong, i dont think it will ever be proven to your satisfaction because, and i have no idea if this is right or not for YOU, but you were probably fed a bunch of bullsh it about it and that has turned you off, being a truth seeker.

You will not find satisfaction in a forum! Saddly, like i said, you wont find it from many qigong people either. Most of the internal world is full of bull! No touch KO's, moving someone without touching them, and a whole host of other BS! Mate, that is NOT what qigong or qi is or is about. That no one can show you that satisfactorily in your world, mate i understand.

good luck
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Re: Anything???

Postby Brian » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:16 pm

Hey Pete.. I know you have outlined before your Taiji training, and you have mentioned having done some Qigong...what I would like to know is what type/style of Qigong have you studied (Zhang Zhuang Standing set, White Crane Hard/Soft, Shi Ba Shi, Ba Duan, Wild Goose, etc) and how long did you study them for. Also do you have a regular regime of Qigong, do you study/train with a teacher now or are you relying on memory in order to continue? When was the last time you had your Qigong corrected by a bona fide teacher?

You see, I'm worried that you either have not had correct training in a particular set of Qigong and/or have strayed from the correct method by not having a teacher (a good one, that is!)

Just trying to understand where you are coming from in relation to your quest for 'proof', because maybe the proof you need is in the correct usage and structure of your own Qigong training.
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Re: Anything???

Postby pete5770 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:02 pm

Brian wrote:Hey Pete.. I know you have outlined before your Taiji training, and you have mentioned having done some Qigong...what I would like to know is what type/style of Qigong have you studied (Zhang Zhuang Standing set, White Crane Hard/Soft, Shi Ba Shi, Ba Duan, Wild Goose, etc) and how long did you study them for. Also do you have a regular regime of Qigong, do you study/train with a teacher now or are you relying on memory in order to continue? When was the last time you had your Qigong corrected by a bona fide teacher?

You see, I'm worried that you either have not had correct training in a particular set of Qigong and/or have strayed from the correct method by not having a teacher (a good one, that is!)

Just trying to understand where you are coming from in relation to your quest for 'proof', because maybe the proof you need is in the correct usage and structure of your own Qigong training.


Hasn't everyone done some Qigong? You can't go to any kind of Tai Chi class or gathering without someone leading the group in a bit of Qigong. Does it even matter what the names are?
Not that I remember them.

How long did I study them. I wouldn't call it study. More like a bit of warmup before we got into the long form.

"bona fide teacher(qigong)" is something of an Oxymoron to me. I did the exercises, and still do, whenever they are presented at a class, but only for the stretching / warmup value.

As for straying from the "... correct training.." see "bona fide..." above.

Last but not least "I AM NOT ON A "GUEST FOR PROOF". BIg letters because I've said this before.
To be honest I'm not sure I would bother with it even if proof was forthcoming. Everything about it so vague, cloudy, and unclear that I'm just not interested. Everyone tells me I should take an active interest in politics and religon. Both of them bore me to tears. Same thing with listening to someone go on about Qigong.

I will say one thing about Qigong. All I ever hear is how it will help heal everything from A to Z.
This being the case it is probably only a matter of time before it becomes completely discredited
due to the constant barrage of hype about it. If the Qigong community doesn't somehow put a stop to all that hype things will get really crazy and the claims of wonderous benefits and healing
will get way out of hand and then the bubble will burst. People will only swallow so much. It may be good and going great guns now but nothing lasts forever. I see it approaching real "fad" status right now. You might say that the rise AND fall of Qigong is upon us.
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Re: Anything???

Postby Brian » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:14 am

pete5770 wrote: Hasn't everyone done some Qigong? You can't go to any kind of Tai Chi class or gathering without someone leading the group in a bit of Qigong. Does it even matter what the names are? Not that I remember them.


Well, in order to study something in-depth you need to know what the topic is about....a clue would be in the name. The different types og qigong focus on different aspects of the body's development. On a simpler level, it would be like you wandering into a knitting class hoping to study physics...but because you didn't know the name of the class you end up in the wrong place and not at all happy.

How long did I study them. I wouldn't call it study. More like a bit of warmup before we got into the long form.


Well...if you didn't study the Qigong and only used it as a 'warm up' you have been grossly mis-led by the teacher. Qigong is a study in itself, and is paramount to understanding the concepts and priciples of Taijiquan. They are inseperable twins.

"bona fide teacher(qigong)" is something of an Oxymoron to me. I did the exercises, and still do, whenever they are presented at a class, but only for the stretching / warmup value.


See above quote!!

Last but not least "I AM NOT ON A "GUEST FOR PROOF". BIg letters because I've said this before.
To be honest I'm not sure I would bother with it even if proof was forthcoming. Everything about it so vague, cloudy, and unclear that I'm just not interested. Everyone tells me I should take an active interest in politics and religon. Both of them bore me to tears. Same thing with listening to someone go on about Qigong.


Whatever you do, stay out of politics and religion. However with respect to Qigong, your vagueness comes from the fact that you have not been taught correctly and have never gone deep into the subject (and I mean deep).

I will say one thing about Qigong. All I ever hear is how it will help heal everything from A to Z.
This being the case it is probably only a matter of time before it becomes completely discredited
due to the constant barrage of hype about it. If the Qigong community doesn't somehow put a stop to all that hype things will get really crazy and the claims of wonderous benefits and healing
will get way out of hand and then the bubble will burst. People will only swallow so much. It may be good and going great guns now but nothing lasts forever. I see it approaching real "fad" status right now. You might say that the rise AND fall of Qigong is upon us.

[/quote]

I doubt that something that is been around for so long (certainly >3000 years) I doubt very much that it will become discredited very soon. Not EVERYONE claims that Qigong will cure ALL ills....I know I certainly don't, and I have been practicing and studying Qigong (and TaiJiquan) for more than 15 years. You must integrate it into you daily training regime (certainly if you want to get the best from your Taiji). Don't listen to all the hype....use common sense....seperate the wheat from the chaff. I have been asked many times if Qigong will cure 'this or that' and I reply usually, "of itself it won't, but you can use Qigong as yet another tool/process in your regime to become healthy".
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Re: Anything???

Postby pete5770 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:10 am

Enough. Dead horse.
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Re: Anything???

Postby caesar » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:57 pm

I'm curious Pete. If you are having an opinion that you don't believe in the effects of Qi Gong, only because "true believers" say so...how long are you going to deny the effect by thinking and analyzing, instead of trying it yourself?

Yes, you did say that you have tried it a few times as a warm up etc...but at least every time I hear how to get the benefits of Qi Gong (or, yoga, or meditation, or learning to play piano, or dropping of unhealthy groceries), people say that the practice must be regular and be done for a while before mind and body starts to feel the benefits...this means a few days or a few weeks will probably not be enough...which is often the case with people looking for instant effects.
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Re: Anything???

Postby caesar » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 pm

As I ask you, why won't you give it a regular try (Qi Gong)...you start talking about the past, the hippies, the wannabe hippies in India, rope tricks in India, how respect has been gained in the past by religions, Jesus as a healer.

Now you also want to see some Qi Gong expert giving proof to you that he/she can heal someone with the art. That's strange...since I didn't catch anyone else trying to convince you that it's the point of doing Qi Gong. It seems more like you are wanting the forum or "true believers" of this forum to convince you that the new age HYPE of Qi Gong is true...and at least I don't have any reason to try to prove you the hype is true.

People themselves (with regular training), have direct experience that the practice of Qi Gong helps themselves and from this you want some proof? Well then you would have to watch very carefully a person starting to train Qi Gong for let's say three months and see if there are some results...perhaps for example...better digestion, easier to get sleep...but this wouldn't still convince you...because your mind would tell you that there are numerous of other possibilities of why the person has been having better nights and easier to poo. Usually at this point many rational people tend to think about placebo..."it was all in your mind." ...well perhaps...that is a good start...to start noticing how your feelings in your body might change as you have an experience how your mind might work for, or against you by believing or not believing...or by accepting or rejecting.

Perhaps, it would be your mind not being so skeptic...if a person would tell you "I took a class where the instructor showed me ways to breath and move my body at the same time...it felt nice, I hadn't been moving my waist for months because of my desk job!"...with no mention about Qi, or Energy or god or any word which usually tends to rise negative thoughts in your mind.

Pete...is it so hard to believe that if you make experiences with your body, you might actually start feeling your body in a different way...and perhaps start noticing how you might be tense in the shoulders blocking the blood flow or walking unbalanced or not breathing when you're having hard time? Are you saying this is so far from anything logical and must be only the talk of "true believers"?

Direct experience with your body does not need words or analyzing...it doesn't need to have anything to do with god, healers or India...or ropes.
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Re: Anything???

Postby pete5770 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:43 pm

pete5770 wrote:
Brian wrote:
pete5770 wrote:I'm not supposed to write about or question Qigong anymore, so mellow is the word. :wink: :wink:


Agghhh!! it's no good...your compliance is un-nervingly boring....you are released from your promise....go! be controvertial....seek the proof you so desperately need!!!!

:roll:

:roll:


Ok, but I'll back off for a while. Would anyone care to comment on my idea that I should move on(from Yang style) to Wu(hao) style. This has been in the back of my head for quite some time. and I've sort of convinced myself that it is the natural progression of the Tai Chi art. From the somewhat hard and expansive Chen style it progressed to a softer, more internal than external
Yang and Wu. Then Wu Yuxiang advanced it to the next level with his smaller, more precise more compact form. It's almost as if Tai Chi were heading towards no movement. This, no movement, or very little movement, idea intrigues me very, very much. Whether this is a real
concept or just wishful thinking doesn't deter me from possibly delving into Wu(hao). However, it would seem that instructors are few and far between. At least where I live. More than a few Wu(Yang variation) people around but...... I believe I can transition between the two with not to much trouble as my Yang style has been getting smaller and smaller over the years, but my confidence in learning a NEW style from a video is, well, there is nothing like having someone look over your shoulder. Plus I have this fear of becoming the self taught man. You know, "The self taught man has a fool for an intructor and an idiot for a student." Anyway, anyone out there
who is a Wu(hao) practitioner that may have a word of wisdom or two for me?


I realize that my question about going from Yang to Wu(hao), without live instruction(videos and books only), is probably in the wrong portion of this forum but would anyone care to comment. Do I have any believers in my idea of Wu(hao) being right in line with the logical progression and refinement of Tai Chi as it moves through the ages? Anyone????
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Re: Anything???

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:39 pm

pete5770 wrote: Do I have any believers in my idea of Wu(hao) being right in line with the logical progression and refinement of Tai Chi as it moves through the ages? Anyone????


Yang from Cheng-fu is more refined in specific ways that WuHao. It is not necessarily better or worse, both contain the exact same energies, applications and push hands training methods.

I've seen training partners become far better push hands players from Qigong practice BTW.

On another comment, the idea that thousands of years ago that people did not know what was in a body, this is not true, dismemberment and mutilation was well known. I agree that the functions of the organs were little understood, but people did have a rather good understanding of anatomy.

It seems to come down to Pete being an Atheist!
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Re: Anything???

Postby Brian » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:35 pm

pete5770 wrote:I believe things do get "better" as time progresses. As people with better educations(Wu Yuxiang) take up the study of things(Tai Chi) they find better and easier ways of making things work.


Unfortunately not always the case....I have seen some absolute rubbish Taiji on YouTube that has been supposedly 'bettered' but lacked so much in its usage...no Intention (Yi)..no Substantial/Insubstantial...no Martial Content...bad footwork..etc.
I agree that in general most things improve as we refine them, but you have to be very carefull when choosing, otherwise you end up with rubbish.

I think Tai Chi has been going toward "smaller", for lack of a better word, since it's inception, and Wu(hao) is the current manifestation of this. Without even trying my Yang Tai Chi has gotten "smaller" or more compact. My hands rarely leave my sight or peripheral vison these days, an important element in self defense. I notice this to be somewhat true with Wu(hao) practicioners in videos I have watched.


It would be a natural evolution for your Form to become more compact irrespective of the style..as you progress and learn, you lose the larger movements, refining all the time, so that you generate the same power but with less effort and movement.

The question I ask myself is "is it really necessary to be large and expansive to generate the 4 ounces of force?". The answer is no, it takes but a touch. Wu(hao) seems to be headed in that direction and that's what intrigues me.


All styles, practiced correctly and in accordance with the basic Concepts, should be heading in that direction..not exclusively Wu(Hao).

BTW...I not sure what part of the US you are in, but if it's near SF in California, then heres a link to a Wu(Hao) school:

http://www.wuhaotaichi.com/index.html
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Re: Anything???

Postby pete5770 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:41 pm

Brian wrote:
pete5770 wrote:I believe things do get "better" as time progresses. As people with better educations(Wu Yuxiang) take up the study of things(Tai Chi) they find better and easier ways of making things work.



I agree that in general most things improve as we refine them, but you have to be very carefull when choosing, otherwise you end up with rubbish.

I think Tai Chi has been going toward "smaller", for lack of a better word, since it's inception, and Wu(hao) is the current manifestation of this.


It would be a natural evolution for your Form to become more compact irrespective of the style..as you progress and learn, you lose the larger movements, refining all the time, so that you generate the same power but with less effort and movement.

The question I ask myself is "is it really necessary to be large and expansive to generate the 4 ounces of force?". The answer is no, it takes but a touch. Wu(hao) seems to be headed in that direction and that's what intrigues me.


All styles, practiced correctly and in accordance with the basic Concepts, should be heading in that direction..not exclusively Wu(Hao).

BTW...I not sure what part of the US you are in, but if it's near SF in California, then heres a link to a Wu(Hao) school:

http://www.wuhaotaichi.com/index.html


You're probably right that ALL styles may eventually get you smaller and smaller. My feeling is that Wu Yuxiang saw the "way" forward and took Tai Chi up another big notch on the ladder in one big leap.
Thanks for the link to S.F. but I live in Toledo, Ohio. Just too long of a commute.
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Re: Anything???

Postby Dvivid » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:04 am

We all have our own bias. I only continue to participate because I fear a total beginner using this forum could become confused about qigong. If you don't like qigong, don't do it. For those of us who do, there is a lot to learn. But, we are lucky that many generations have left a clear map about how and why qigong does work.

My bias is that I love qigong, because it helped me to fix my terrible hunchback posture and heal my knee arthritis, improve my immune system to the degree that I do not get sick, and help dozens of students to do the same.

I think it is not accurate to say:
Qigong doesn't even offer that much. perhaps it's because there is nothing to show.


I have no interest in trying to convince a naysayer. I respect your opinion and choice. But I do feel a responsibility to explain, for the benefit of any open-minded people still interested in qigong. Especially those who have real health problems. Helping others should be our focus.

The arts of qigong and acupuncture were developed through feeling. Practitioners had fewer distractions and decades to accumulate empirical experience, which was then documented in hundreds of written poems and stories from China, India, Nepal, and Tibet. They all explain the same basic experience and tell how one can practice safely.

In ancient times, it is true, they did not know anatomy as we do today. But, they observed an affect and described it accurately. What we call hormones today, they called 'essence.' What we call the enteric nervous system today, they called the 'real lower dantian'. What we call the limbic system, they called the 'upper dan tian'. What we call seven fascial planes in the body are described as 7 'chakras' in the Indian system, and 7 'matching acupuncture gates' in Chinese. Its all the same concept, from different perspectives.

Only in the past couple decades are modern Western medical scientists researching the role the mind plays in healing and in gene expression. Again, google 'psychoneuroimmunology' and 'epigenetics'. If you do not want to learn qigong, then I suggest you take the equal and opposite approach of learning about the 'relaxation response' and how you can enhance your body's health, vitality, and longevity through relaxation and meditation.

This modern research matches exactly what qigong has been telling us for centuries. Your mind is the root of your health, and there is a way to transform your body that has lasting effects.

There are many non-qigong books written by medical scientists, who use modern terminology to explain the same process in the body.

Read:
The Body Electric
http://www.amazon.com/Body-Electric-Ele ... 0688069711

Relaxation Response
http://www.amazon.com/Relaxation-Respon ... 0380815958

Healing is Voltage
http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Voltage-N ... 1453649166

Vibrational Medicine
http://www.amazon.com/Vibrational-Medic ... pd_sim_b_5

and you might want to try a qigong book while you're at it!
http://www.amazon.com/Qigong-Meditation ... 886969736/

I hope this helps.
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Re: Anything???

Postby Dvivid » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:52 am

You already said that. I explained there is more to it than this childish accusation.

We're having an intelligent discussion for the benefit of forum readers. These posts are read by thousands, and they will stay online for a long time.

This topic of energy healing comes up often and should be understood clearly, therefore I bother to respond to your increasingly annoying posts.I actually care if you learn how to get well and become more positive.

If you are here simply to antagonize, and have no intelligent reply to my thoughtful response, you are not serving any purpose in this forum and your posts can simply be deleted. If you have good intentions and wish to interact with our YMAA community, show it now, or go away.
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Re: Anything???

Postby brer_momonga » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:35 am

I don't think anyone is really threatened by your questions, just concerned that your statements appear to be written out of context. Since this forum is hosted by YMAA, why not start your discussions from the context of a YMAA publication? It will give weight and precision to your own Qi Gong commentary.
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Re: Anything???

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:49 pm

brer_momonga wrote:I don't think anyone is really threatened by your questions, just concerned that your statements appear to be written out of context.

THIS and so much more!

pete, you say you have been doing taiji for 40 years, yet by your words, you clearly misunderstand the FUNDAMENTAL components of the art. I had the chance to chat with a woman on Youtube before she passed away who followed the same ludicrious logic, although her excuse was she that QI conflicted with her religious beliefs (dont even get me started on that one). I assume, and maybe this is too assumptious of me, but after 40 years, you are teaching others (as was this lady). Now, not only are you affecting yourself, you are affecting your students with this misguided and incorrect information. And new students are easily gullible (look at all those crazies believing in no touch KO's and such nonsense).

If your taiji is anything like this lady's, i fear for the overall level of taiji (and the internal arts). One cannot claim to teach others taiji (or bagua, or xingyi) without accepting that they are of a different thought process, for one. And for another, that thought process is just as valid as the "evidence" you claim you need. My teacher spoke many times about WHAT TO EXPECT out of qigong. He said, if you expect to have miracles, to be instantly healed, to be superman, FORGET IT! It will not, nor cannot happen! This is buying into the propaganda. It tells me your teacher was not very high skill, not to be critical, but to call a spade a spade. Please understand, I do not mean to say your taiji is garbage, far from it. However, it is VERY easy to delude ourselves into believing we are better than we are, especially when EGO is concerned (teaching others).

Qi is NOT mysterious. No more than the electricity running our computers is (and believe me, i question if we understand that at times!).

I know.. dead horse..
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