Anything???

Discuss and share your injury experiences, your healing process and methods. Help your fellow students recover. Please stay on topic.

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Re: Anything???

Postby Josh Young » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:15 pm

inverse placebo is a serious issue, an effective drug will frequently fail to work for someone who believes it will not or does not think it will

there are studies with opiates showing that if a person does not know they have been given them, or does not believe they will work for them, then they often fail to work at relieving pain.

your attitude is unhealthy, it prevents healing
but who can heal you of your attitude but you?

You clearly don't want to be healed.
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Re: Anything???

Postby Josh Young » Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:44 pm

pete5770 wrote: My atitude is one of "prove it to me".

That is certainly not how you come across or seem, rather you seem incredibly jaded, closed minded and unwilling to consider evidence at all. You even go so far as to state in another post that if you get real evidence that you feel is authentic then you "MAY" believe. That comes across as closed minded and not in any way shape or form: impartial.

My attitude is also one of "prove it to me"
However I don't dismiss what lacks proof, the way you do, because it has no proof for or against it. To say it is or is not real would be a waste of time and energy, because it is just opinion.

If someone can "cure or heal" me with Chi I eagerly await their making themselves known to me.

Your closed mind prevents it. You don't have to believe anything, just let go of your doubts and all that negative energy you cultivate in maintaining them.

You mentioned that if something does not exist, then it cannot be proven to not exist. And yet what are you doing but trying to say that you believe things don't exist because you have not seen evidence. It isn't like you are saying that you will remain impartial until evidence arises, rather you have made up your mind to "believe against" despite a lack of evidence. This is like the foolishness of atheism, equally as ridiculous as theism, making claims for or against something without evidence is equally absurd.
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Re: Anything???

Postby Josh Young » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:24 pm

Where did I say qi would cure illness?
I repeatedly stated I did not believe it would.

Your claims about what others believe and say is more outlandish and unfounded than the claims you pretend they make, which they don't actually make.

There are a lot of diverse views here, there is hardly any way of thinking or believing that is shared by most of the forum members let alone all of them.

My views are certainly not typical, David Silver can attest to this, he has been rather patient and considerate as a moderator and knows full well that I have some very distinct views and opinions, as do many of us here.

it is one thing to be skeptical, to even address specific claims, studies, accounts and facts and critique and analyze them , but you tend to avoid doing this and like to make blanket dismissals.

You pretend to be looking for evidence while admitting you don't even care about evidence and you already know what you believe. What can you learn or gain by doing this? How does it serve you?

I agree with you on so many things, but I don't think you see that. You seem to think that my not taking the same extreme anti-everything position you have is somehow a sign that i am not a skeptic, but you are wrong about that. I am rather skeptical, but also open minded, something you do not seem to be.

If you don't believe in taijiquan, why do you do it?
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Re: Anything???

Postby Dvivid » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:18 am

"Prove it to me", reads like, Do It For Me. That's not how it works. Usually in Tai Chi and Qigong, a student learns the theory and practices and develops some skill and continues to improve their own health.

Unless you really are just seeking a Qi Healer to do it for you, in which case you'll probably want to go to the nearest Chinatown.

As far as having a "bad" knee, or bad anything...it is your bodypart. You are not a victim of your injury. Only you are responsible for the health of your body parts. Calling it 'bad' does not imply an attitude of intending to heal. It sounds like you might be addicted to complaining.

No offense meant, seriously. The MIND comes first. All other qi theory and technique is secondary.

As far as "Qi curing illness" - that's a pretty vague statement.

Qi is not a magical separate energy. It is the energy within all of your body's biological functions. Healing happens when a student regulates the body, breathing, mind, energy and spirit. Not metaphorically, but really.

Your body needs to be strong and flexible with healthy alignment, to allow your circulation to improve. You have to resolve any muscular issues you have through stretching, herbs, massage, etc.

Your breathing should be deep, slow, quiet, and deeply relaxing. When you are relaxed, your sympathetic nervous system calms down and your body can BEGIN healing. Even in a low level stress mental state, your body's healing shuts off completely.

Observing the breath helps you to quiet the mind. Focus on feeling, rather than thinking. Your mind needs to calm down and become emotionally neutral. Be positive, stop complaining. Turn your attention inward. Pay attention to the motion in the stillness.

When you harmonize the above three, body, breathing, and mind, and relax into a deeply meditative state (of alpha and theta brainwaves) your body's recuperative abilities function best. It is this prerequisite harmonized state needed to 'lead' the Qi.

And when you stay in this healthy mind set and behavior pattern long enough, it affects which of your genes express, and can have longterm affects.

70% of your metabolic waste (dead cells) is removed from the body through breathing. 19% is removed through sweating. So, if you dont breathe deeply and break a sweat often, cell replacement slows down and healing becomes difficult.

ETC...

If you already do all of the above healthy practices and can't make progress with your old injury, or with healing something simple like Athlete's foot, ask for help. Most people will help you with practical advice, not magical healing.

Ask, believe, receive.
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Re: Anything???

Postby Josh Young » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:37 pm

pete5770 wrote: To be honest my "prove it" or "show
me something" attitude is not asking very much, yet no one has ever stepped up and shown me anything that has changed my mind. :wink: :wink:

You have admitted that even if you think it is real evidence you may not be convinced.

You display incredibly poor judgement as that you lack objectivity.

You are in the habit of denial, you cannot overcome that habit with proof or evidence.
Habits must be re-trained.

Retrain and then you will see that the proof was always there.
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Re: Anything???

Postby Dvivid » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:36 am

Qigong is an internal art. You're going to have to show YOURSELF the shiny stuff. Read theory, train, gain experience, accumulate benefits gradually.

Google psychoneuroimmunology or epigenetics and realize these new fields of Western medical science are saying exactly what the internal arts have been saying for centuries.

I agree that it is intelligent to start from a skeptical viewpoint and require proof. Again, there are many NIH studies ongoing about how and why qigong, tai chi, meditation work. Don't wait 50 years for the Western medical textbook on the subject to come out.
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Re: Anything???

Postby Brian » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:28 pm

pete5770 wrote:In any persons life there is a limited amount of time. Myself, I have neither the inclination, time, or desire to try and find out if Bigfoot exists, if aliens visited earth, what happened to Atlantis, if the Bermuda Triangle actually has some "power", or if Qigong is anything more than a myth.
Many people search their whole lives for proof of one or another of these "ideas", for lack of a better word. I choose to do other things with the time in my life and if anyone comes up with a Bigfoot(other than out of focus, grainy photos), I say great and I'll believe in Bigfoot then. However, the odds of this happening, at least as I see it, are slim and none. Same thing for me with Qigong. To be honest, I feel, a lot of this type of thing is a "wild goose chase", resulting in years of frustration for whomever undertakes whatever they are searching for. Even on the off chance that some of these things do exist is simply not enough for me to plunge blindly into myth and ledgend about something that doesn't really interest me. Even if true, Bigfoot is not something I'm going to arrange my life around. Same with Qigong. Despite all the talk of Chi it has always seemed to me like the people telling you about it were lying, for whatever reasons.
Way to unclear as to what they were trying to tell me, too many quotes from this or that master,
no two descriptions of Chi seem to match, it's all over the charts as to what it can do(basically everything or so we're told), and everyone, and I mean everyone, who does Tai Chi claims to have "felt the Chi move in me". Everyone, that is, except one of my instructors and myself.


Pete...you are like the proverbial dog with the bone..you will not let it go!! We have talked before about your disbelief in stuff just because you couldn't see/find the 'proof' (remember turning lead into gold??) well in this case why don't you stop worrying about what other people believe or don't believe, and if it doesn't interest you...then don't do Qi Gong, forget about Qi Gong, stop trying to get everyone else to not practice it, just get on with your life...because if you continue to let this issue eat away at your system then you will end up ill....then you won't be able to indulge in your passion in life...cycling (as you have indicated elsewhere).
In a previous post you and I agreed to disagree on this very topic...you could do the same here with the other forum participants in relation to the current topic.
Some people believe in Fayries (old spelling) others do not....it is not actually important whether they exist or not.... these are individual belief systems...a basic function of being human.
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Re: Anything???

Postby Dvivid » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:44 pm

Yes, why are we even having this conversation if
Myself, I have neither the inclination, time, or desire to try and find out if... Qigong is anything more than a myth.


I was only trying to answer to help, but see now you have a predetermined anti-Qigong agenda. (Mentioning it in the same sentence with Bigfoot...)

Pete, if you were practicing Tai Chi, and your body was alive and your limbs were moving, then you felt the Qi move. Without Qi (energy), we are just dead meat. it is not a mystery dude. You just don't understand the topic you're railing against.

When you read this, energy is allowing your brain to move your eyeballs and read and comprehend. That's Qi. When you type some hystrionic rebuttal that drags this on another week, your meaty fingers will be circulating Qi in order for you to type.

Energy is not a myth, it is a fact.

Image
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Re: Anything???

Postby Dvivid » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:55 am

I don't want to be a jerk about this, sincerely. Its just that it is such a broken record in the internal martial arts community. I agree with the sentiment that people did not understand anatomy and such 300 years ago. In fact, Dr. Yang mentioned that in China even only 100 years ago 99.9% of people could not read or write.

But, I do think this is an important subject that I've seen 100's of times and wish that some common ground could be struck in understanding what we're discussing.

The point is: Qi = energy. Your body's cells have a life energy within them. Call it what you like. If we can't agree on that, it is not possible to have an intelligent adult conversation.

Western medical science describes it in many ways, depending upon which way they are analyzing it. Chemically, units of energy are "ATP". Molecules, which are made of atoms, which are made of...?

Electrically, they discuss brainwave frequencies and ion channels, measured by an EEG and MRI or other devices that measure energy and magnetic fields.

Realize that these NEW fields of Western research are all talking about energy, and a lot of the research mirrors what internal martial artists have been discussing for centuries.

We metabolize energy and we inhale ions with every breath. This is Qi.
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Re: Anything???

Postby pete5770 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:58 am

Dvivid wrote:I don't want to be a jerk about this, sincerely. Its just that it is such a broken record in the internal martial arts community. I agree with the sentiment that people did not understand anatomy and such 300 years ago. In fact, Dr. Yang mentioned that in China even only 100 years ago 99.9% of people could not read or write.

But, I do think this is an important subject that I've seen 100's of times and wish that some common ground could be struck in understanding what we're discussing.

The point is: Qi = energy. Your body's cells have a life energy within them. Call it what you like. If we can't agree on that, it is not possible to have an intelligent adult conversation.

Western medical science describes it in many ways, depending upon which way they are analyzing it. Chemically, units of energy are "ATP". Molecules, which are made of atoms, which are made of...?

Electrically, they discuss brainwave frequencies and ion channels, measured by an EEG and MRI or other devices that measure energy and magnetic fields.

Realize that these NEW fields of Western research are all talking about energy, and a lot of the research mirrors what internal martial artists have been discussing for centuries.

We metabolize energy and we inhale ions with every breath. This is Qi.


Sorry, but I promised I wouldn't question Qiging any more. Apparently just asking for proof is something akin to saying that I don't believe in God during the preachers sermon. This really brings up another question. Why does everyone "....protest too much methinks"? Could I be threatening your beliefs? Or causing you to question them? And this makes you very uncomfortable? Do you really believe all this or have you simply talked myself into it? Or have you made a whole lot more of something than it actually is? You know, mountains from molehills? I have found that most people are very passionate about being "true believers" if you will, yet when they tell me about this Chi it never seems to ring true. It's as if they really, really want this to be true, then they can tell people about this power they have and then they will feel better about themselves, but because they are really not sure it never comes off as anything that "rings true".
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Re: Anything???

Postby Brian » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:55 am

pete5770 wrote: Sorry, but I promised I wouldn't question Qiging any more. Apparently just asking for proof is something akin to saying that I don't believe in God during the preachers sermon.


Not quite...but standing up during the sermon and demanding proof of the existance of god from the preacher, is. and you know that cannot be done....it is a matter of Faith.

This really brings up another question. Why does everyone "....protest too much methinks"? Could I be threatening your beliefs? Or causing you to question them? And this makes you very uncomfortable?


Evryone?? have you been counting?....no, NOT everyone!! A person whose belief system is strong will never feel threatened, and would welcome the questioning skeptic.

Do you really believe all this or have you simply talked myself into it? Or have you made a whole lot more of something than it actually is? You know, mountains from molehills? I have found that most people are very passionate about being "true believers" if you will, yet when they tell me about this Chi it never seems to ring true. It's as if they really, really want this to be true, then they can tell people about this power they have and then they will feel better about themselves, but because they are really not sure it never comes off as anything that "rings true".


It is your own disbelief (in the absence of proof) that causes you to think they don't 'ring true'.

I get the feeling that you are not entirely confident in your own disbelief....therefore you are constantly feeding it by questioning everyone else's.
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Re: Anything???

Postby chh » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:54 pm

Fellows, I know I haven't been involved in this conversation. I've been thinking about this thread and it would be nice to try and reconcile the two sides in whatever way possible.

It is completely reasonable (I would say virtuous) to require proof about a claim (especially when it rests on new assertions about the universe that haven't been evaluated scientifically, as in the existence of qi) before accepting it, and to object when healing techniques that haven't been empirically tested are presented to the public as reliable methods of healing, which I think is part of pete5770's motivation here.

At the same time, I don't think it's appropriate to critique people for experimenting with and seriously pursuing mastery of qigong. I don't know if that kind of criticism is happening here, but it's pretty clear that people are perceiving it that way. If we're going to test the efficacy of qigong directly (of course people are already trying), there need to be experts who know how to do it. Selling it as a reliable qi- based cure/treatment for illnesses and injuries right now is another matter, although exercise, relaxation, and moving around in general have therapeutic effects that we accept generally.

Questions surrounding qi and qigong are absolutely not matters of faith. Practitioners make explicit predictions about things we already know how to measure, like immune response, recovery from injuries, (and if qi is really just an instantiation of types of energy that scientists already measure as has been suggested here) accumulation, storage, and flow of energy.

As David already said a few times, there is ongoing research into these topics. There's not nearly enough to make a good argument to pete5770 that the all the diverse claims about qi and qigong are supported by science, but I think the fact that such research is taking place is one of the best reasons to encourage people to study and master these practices.

I don't know if the contents of this thread are the result of an ideological difference or just a misunderstanding, but I guess the latter was how I perceived it.
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Re: Anything???

Postby Dvivid » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:16 pm

Welcome CHH!

Its not that I protest too much, or that my beliefs are challenged. Its just that for about 15 years, I have been having this same conversation with people.

Saying "Qi isn't real" is akin to saying "I do not exist." I am trying to make the point clear that Qi is not some separate energy from your physical body. It is the energy within your body right now that animates your cells. Are you seriously attempting to argue that your cells do not have energy within them? In fact, every cell acts as a dipole, giving and releasing a charge.

If you cannot simply say "Oh. I did not realize that." and move into the much more interesting conversation of "How do I affect the energy in my body for health / for martial arts?" then we are stuck in the place where conversation is impossible.

I studied qigong for about 7 years, and then I became certified to teach by Dr. Yang six years ago. During that time, I experienced many of the things you read about in qigong, Buddhist, Kundalini yoga literature about the body's energy. The progression happens about the same for everyone, whichever discipline you focus on, and its fairly predictable.

I teach classes by donation, three times a week, sometimes five. In the past six years, I have had a lot of students with injuries or illnesses, from simple things like a "bad back" to cancer. And by teaching traditional qigong with enough theory that people can really understand and PRACTICE often, some of these people have improved their health dramatically, and cured many ailments.

I highly recommend qigong (and taijiquan) to anyone interested in improving their health.

One keypoint from the classics (and from recent Western medical research):
The mind comes first. Without a positive attitude and deep relaxation, your immune response is suppressed and healing comes to a standstill. Modern life is stressful and dark, and the mind needs to transcend the normal daily stress and background noise in order to reach a state where healing happens. Meaning, technically; you have to CHOOSE to get your mind into a state in which your brainwaves slow down to alpha or even theta, and the sympathetic nervous system relaxes, so that healing can begin.

I only continue this conversation because I want to help people.
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Re: Anything???

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:55 pm

While I know Dvivid does not need me, nor probably want me to do this, let me make it stupidly simple for you.

Take a fish. Tell a fish they live in water and they will look at you (if they could) and call you 1000 names of foolishness. How can we be in water? It isnt possible. We would feel it! You are crazy. DESPITE the FACT that animals like bears have caught fish out of the water for thousands of years.

Humans live in an electromagnetic field, some call it bioelectricity. Chi is a 1000 year old idea that people who didn't have electric devices used to describe THAT phenomena! Traditional chinese medicine has used qi successfully (in explaining the results) for a thousand years or more. Results, by the way, that modern medicine cannot explain fully. How? because we live in a field of electromagnetic energy! You cant touch it. you can't feel it. However, remove it, and you sure as hell know it (like the fish out of water) - and yes, there have been many experiments done on this topic.

To deny that qi is real is a choice. It is a choice to focus on 5 senses. The world is more than what our 5 senses can tell us, seeing that what they tell us is directly controlled by our beliefs, fault and all.

There really is no argument against qi. Science uses it every day. Medicine does to. You cannot take qi out of human experience any more than you can take water out of a fishes experience.

hmm.. bloody qigong is working. Ordinarily, i would have just called doubters morons and went that way (check my other posts if you dont believe me). dam qigong! It has mellowed me out...
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Re: Anything???

Postby pete5770 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:00 pm

wpgtaiji wrote:

hmm.. bloody qigong is working. Ordinarily, i would have just called doubters morons and went that way (check my other posts if you dont believe me). dam qigong! It has mellowed me out...


Mellow is good. :wink:
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Re: Anything???

Postby Dvivid » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:38 am

Thanks for taking the time to write that, I can relate.
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Re: Anything???

Postby Brian » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:23 pm

pete5770 wrote:I'm not supposed to write about or question Qigong anymore, so mellow is the word. :wink: :wink:


Agghhh!! it's no good...your compliance is un-nervingly boring....you are released from your promise....go! be controvertial....seek the proof you so desperately need!!!!

:roll:

:roll:
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Re: Anything???

Postby chh » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:20 pm

wpgtaiji,

Dvivid just gave me a welcoming, civil response, and I was happy to leave the discussion at that. Your post was a step backwards, as it was insulting and failed to address the actual nature of the discussion. I think this message board should generally be a place for people to share the enormous wealth of knowledge about CMA and qigong that its members have collected, so I'm not interested in filling it with a bunch of stuff about why people do scientific research. The bottom line with that topic is that proposals that make specific, testable claims that don't automatically follow from what we already know about the world should be tested before they're recognized as justified in scientific and clinical contexts (and qigong says more than just "qi exists"). I wasn't saying anything more aggressive than that, and I think you must have misunderstood something.

I'd rather not post in this thread anymore, but if you want to send me a private message I'd be willing to have a maximum of two volleys of conversation about this. I've seen your posts elsewhere on the board and a lot of it gets pretty negative pretty fast.

Best regards to everyone
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Re: Anything???

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:38 pm

chh wrote:wpgtaiji,

Dvivid just gave me a welcoming, civil response, and I was happy to leave the discussion at that. Your post was a step backwards, as it was insulting and failed to address the actual nature of the discussion. I think this message board should generally be a place for people to share the enormous wealth of knowledge about CMA and qigong that its members have collected, so I'm not interested in filling it with a bunch of stuff about why people do scientific research. The bottom line with that topic is that proposals that make specific, testable claims that don't automatically follow from what we already know about the world should be tested before they're recognized as justified in scientific and clinical contexts (and qigong says more than just "qi exists"). I wasn't saying anything more aggressive than that, and I think you must have misunderstood something.


Sorry mate, the comment wasnt addressed at you at all. I found your stuff good. It was directed to pete, and those who dismiss things out of hat, without understanding cultural diffences.

as to the rest of your "back and forth".. mate, get a grip! You think i have interest in discussing something that wasnt about you with you? Ego is not good mate (and yes, i should know). If you are going to continue to post on forums, you seriously have to toughen up mate. Not every comment under a topic is directed at you. In fact, few ever are (the cosmic you, not the specific you) - as mine certainly wasn't. Maybe you need to understand why you feel that it was? That is the more interesting question than some random wondering about the motivationg force in the universe (qi, god, electricity, what have you).

TOUGHEN UP! (and i say that with all the compassion i can muster)....
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Re: Anything???

Postby chh » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:51 pm

Hi wpgtaiji,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Since your post was below my comment and was addressing the same stuff I was talking about, I made a hasty assumption. I'll take your advice about figuring out how to hang out on message boards.

Since not a single person in this thread has argued that qi doesn't exist, I was having trouble figuring out how to interpret what you were talking about. When you see someone looking at an issue with an open, skeptical mind, I'd encourage you to make sure to figure out what they're actually skeptical about.
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