Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Discuss sparring, training applications in a competition environment, or even in real-life (fighting, self-defence). Please no violence!
And stay on topic.

Moderators: Dvivid, Inga, nyang

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby wpgtaiji » Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:31 pm

taken from http://www.taijiworld.com/sudden-violence.html

Sudden Violence

This is an excerpt from Erle's book. "Sudden Violence, The Montaigue System of Self-Defence"

Introduction.

Sudden Violence is an apt name for the eclectic martial arts or self-defence system that I now teach. It has come mainly from the Internal Martial Arts of Taijiquan and Baguazhang. The name, "Sudden Violence" was suggest to me by one of my long distance students in the USA, Doug Skall who wanted a video series called "Sudden Violence". A series that only dealt with the very direct and dangerous street-fighting method that I now teach.

Hidden within the Internal Martial Arts are some of the most violent self-defence methods ever invented. And that's what self-defence has to be in order to survive street attacks. If you try to 'yield' to an attack in the traditional manner that most teachers tell us to, then you invite defeat and possible injury and death in street attacks. And it is so obvious to me that teachers who tell their students that all they have to do it to yield to an attack just to show the attacker that they know what they are doing, have never themselves been in a serious, life-threatening situation. It's all there in the Taijiquan and Baguazhang 'classics'. However, most teachers take these classic saying too literally and try to execute what those classics say before they have risen to a high enough level. You cannot understand what the great old masters have said when you are not at their level to begin with. The old masters did not write the classics when they were beginning! They wrote them once they had understood fully the meaning of 'internal' and 'small frame'. They wrote them when they were very advanced. What is the use of writing a guide for beginners? The beginner can learn the basic movements from anyone who knows them well enough. But once learnt, it is very important to have a teacher who is able to impart the inner knowledge and also to take the student on to the more advanced forms. And only then will the student understand the true meaning of what the classics are trying to teach us.

The whole secret to learning about 'sudden violence' in the internal martial arts, is in the movements themselves and how the practitioner executes those movements. How the body moves is singularly the most important area of one's training. I have seen so-called karate masters who should not be any more than a blue belt because of the way they move. Sure they know all of the movements of the kata, but they cannot do them! You can easily see that they do not have any real power, power that comes from fa-jing, because their body is so stiff!

it helps if you quote the ENTIRE passage.
wpgtaiji
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:48 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Josh Young » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:42 pm

Like I wrote, I think a lot of that article is:
misconceived and entirely wrong.


My only point was that the WTBA system has taiji in it, but is not taiji. It has bagua in it too, but it is not bagua. Erle clearly wrote that his system of self defense/martial arts (which is the WTBA) was Sudden Violence, he did not formally claim or state it was taijiquan, but said it had it in there. What you quote changes nothing about that and does not contradict it. I think he was wrong about a lot of things, and I and many others I know have been in street situations, so to speak.

In keeping with this thread, Erle was not for aggression unto itself, or in and of itself. He had his opinions, but didn't go to forums to insult other people or to disagree with them and he was capable of disagreeing with people and getting along just fine.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Josh Young » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:48 pm

You cannot understand what the great old masters have said when you are not at their level to begin with.

I can quote him saying he was not at their level, by his own logic he did not understand them. I agree with that. He had his own renegade views. His system has as much in common with Wing Chun as it does taijiquan, but if you have never taken WC that is not so obvious.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Phalanxpursos » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:44 pm

Hey everyone thanks for the replies, my main thesis is that selfdefense and non-violence are a positive paradox.
Strategemata Liber Secundus;
"VIII: Restore Morale with Firmness"
Phalanxpursos
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 12:39 pm
Location: Europe

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Monsoon » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:33 pm

NO such thing. A paradox is a paradox - there is no good or bad! :P

Just touching back on the yang-more yang thing: what seems to be missing in the explanation that was given by wpgtaiji is the concept of intent. In his explanation the 'less yang' side has become yin indirectly. As I understand it, to apply yin (yielding, redirecting ect) in a combat situation is to intentionally absorb or redirect incoming yang. If incoming yang forces you back then you are not applying yin at all, but still attempting to apply yang, only not so well as your opponent.

If an aggressor lunges for you and you sidestep or otherwise avoid the contact, this is obviously a case of yin succeeding over yang, and NOT more yang/less yang. Kind of obvious I would have thought. Running away could be seen as the ultimate yin! :D

Now, on the OP, as an ex-serviceman I was taught to harness aggression and kill the enemy with prejudice. The important part here is 'harness aggression', as aggression which is let loose is chaotic.

As an advocate of martial arts I am fully aware that the practices I indulge in have a fighting context (and are trained that way). However, I (like most of us I hope) live in areas where violent encounters are rare. Therefore, it is easier to allow the self-cultivation part of the arts to come to the fore, without ignoring the martial bits. For me, martial arts such that I practice, are a means not to master myself but to understand myself and to cultivate what I feel is best in me. That is very important for me. I will repeat it, not mastery- but understanding and cultivation.

Has MA made me more or less violent? I would say that the deeper I got into it the more I wanted to avoid violence, but by contrast (and this is not a paradox) the more I also felt able to deal with potentially aggresive situations - I do not mean that I feel that I should win, but that I am more confident in finding the skilfull means of avoiding the conflict altogether, which gels with my buddhist beliefs. Always nice to have a good fit!
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:58 pm

Monsoon wrote:Just touching back on the yang-more yang thing: what seems to be missing in the explanation that was given by wpgtaiji is the concept of intent. In his explanation the 'less yang' side has become yin indirectly. As I understand it, to apply yin (yielding, redirecting ect) in a combat situation is to intentionally absorb or redirect incoming yang. If incoming yang forces you back then you are not applying yin at all, but still attempting to apply yang, only not so well as your opponent.

There is a KEY part to this entire argument.. did you see it?

"As i understand it" and "SEEMS"! See, you are ignoring the fact that intent has NOTHING at all to do with energy change! One can have all the intent in the world to stop a steam roller from rolling down hill (a YIN phase), yet it will still roll over you (a YANG activity), until it runs out of energy and stops (a yin activity). Monsoon standing in front of the roller INTENT on stopping the roller from going down hill (a yang activity), will not stop the roller.

I love how limited people's understanding of yin and yang are on this thread! YES LIMITED! WHAT? See, the roller rolling down hill isnt using its own power, so it is YIN. At the same time, crushing a person in its way is a YANG activity, but its part of the same phase REGARDLESS of intent!

Now, this applies to martial arts because 99.9% of internal artists have no concept of this! To them, yin is black, yang is white (or vice versa). It isnt that simple! The very moment a Yang attack (a yang intent) has reached completion (not where we want it done, but, when energetically it is complete), it changes to yin, and vice versa. If we say that Taiji is "great pole boxing" or some derivation of that name (as has been suggested by a few on this forum), this must be common sense!

With respect to intention, if the energy of a Yang attack is complete, no matter of INTENTING it will cause it to be Yang. That is external martial arts, and has nothing at all to do with energy (which is probably why i am misunderstood on this forum by a few). At the point that the Yang activity is complete, a new intent MUST be created, and it must be YIn. And yes, we use YIn to attack brutally.

Now, back to the actual point. Yang is NOT angry! it is a state. The reason for martial arts training SHOULD be (it typically isnt by the comments here, but that is what it should do) to give one tools to deal with ANY situation. This means that, when someone is intent on causing serious harm, one must be able to deal with that. How? There are many methods, but the easiest is to bring out more yang than the aggressor (this is why Erle taught about the Reptile brain, etc). More yang doesnt mean angry. This isnt easy (which is why it is misunderstood), and requires lots of training.

There are other ways to be more yang than the aggressor, but why should i waste the effort.

When you are finished speculating, get to the root understanding of Yin and yang. That gives you everything you need to know, and, it really isnt a big deal.

Thanks for bringing back the memories! I thought this thread was done months ago! :P
wpgtaiji
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:48 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Monsoon » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:19 pm

Wow man, way to misunderstand a point! Well done.

If you actually think about what I wrote for a moment (do try it) you will note that - to use your example - I am not trying to stop the steamroller at all (as that would be yang in both action and intent). Stepping to one side and allowing the steamroller to continue on its path unhindered is a yin action and a yin intent. At the end the steamroller will, as you point out, run out of energy and become yin. At which time I will be all over its arse giving it a good yanging - in a manner of speaking, and if I so chose.

You said...

The very moment a Yang attack (a yang intent) has reached completion (not where we want it done, but, when energetically it is complete), it changes to yin, and vice versa.


... which simply agrees with what I just said but using different words. This is EXACTLY what I meant in the other post. Maybe I just wasn't clear enough for you, my bad. Intent is important too. Yin intent leads yin action, and vice versa.

Either way, in essence, we are talking about the same point, so it surprises me that you assume I don't understand this principle.

Conceptually, the correct approach to a conflict is to defuse the potential for conflict in the first place, to reduce the likelihood of violence in the second place, and thereafter an increasing grade of counter-violence leading from subduing to death as a point of no option. Even SunZi said:

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

I guess you will want to dig old SunZi up and tell him he understood nothing too! :P
Last edited by Monsoon on Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Monsoon » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:24 pm

Forgot this:

With respect to intention, if the energy of a Yang attack is complete, no matter of INTENTING it will cause it to be Yang.


You are aware that intent comes before action, yes?

Fights between adherents of internal martial arts are based on an agreed convention, because if they both follow their training intentionally they will both stand there and do nothing, for there is no actual conflict between them.

Without intent to inflict violence there is no conflict.

Intent is, in many ways, everything. And it is possible to have intent without it leading to action.
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:07 pm

Sorry mate, you are totally wrong! Sidestepping is NOT YIN! It is a yang activity directed towards nothing. WHAT? Think man! Dont get lost now!!! You have an attack coming at you, which is Yang. You ignore it, that part IS yin.. your ignoring it! BUT, you MOVE out of the way! That is a YANG activity! AND you move into a direction unoccupied by anything! That is a yang movement!

Yin and Yang are not steady states. They are only RELATIVE to something else.

Mate, you will never convince me that you knew this before i put it! All your examples are YANG!
"RUNNING AWAY" is a YANG activity (probably MORE YANG) than the attack coming at you! How can i say this? If an attack is started at a point where they are too far to touch you, and you can get away, there will come a time when they stop attacking (yin), and you are still running, YANG!

Please stop using external martial arts examples! Yin and Yang are not part of that world! You claim to study taiji, show it.

As i have started to show you, you are coming around to my way of thinking (as i have not altered one step). IT is you that is not understanding.

And to top it all off, you totally missed how i illustrated exactly how you can be more Yang than an attacker. I put it in that last bit. Can you see it? :)
wpgtaiji
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:48 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Monsoon » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:58 pm

Well, it's a slow day...

So, according to your understanding (limited as it clearly is, and perhaps not unexpectedly from a 'virtual' student) all action is yang. All of it. There are no yin actions.

Wow! Who would have thunk it? We live in a one-dimensional universe. Yay!

Strictly speaking there is both yin and yang in everything. How could it be otherwise? This is, by the way, not YOUR idea, and certainly not something I have learned from you. Actually, the only thing I've learned from you, apart from your dubious martial background, is as another example of the sheer bloody-mindedness that is commonly seen in the general populace. Latched onto an idea and too scared to let it got.

Incidentally, I watched your YT video... I had to recheck the title because at first I thought I had made a mistake and was watching someone have a slow motion seizure, but apparently not. Still it gave us all a good laugh. Next time they are casting for a zombie movie... you'd be a natural :D
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby chh » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:07 pm

wpgtaiji,

I'm trying to understand your approach to applying yin/yang perspective to martial theory. It sounds like in your view, stepping out of the way of an attack is yang (relative to the attack???), because it's movement into empty space. What, in your view, would be a response that you'd categorize as yin?

edit: incidentally, I think stepping out of the way is a kind of interesting example because it entails neutralization of the attacking energy, but it fails to meet some other important points of taijiquan (sensing, sticking, etc.).
chh
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:09 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Monsoon » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:21 pm

You understand I am just pushing here, yes? :) Okay...

Action that moves away from stillness is yang - as wpgtaiji would agree (unless I really did misunderstand his position - entirely possible - take note wpg, it's not uncool to misunderstand)

Action that moves into an empty space, i.e. action that does not intercept, is yin in intent.

In the concept of fighting any action into empty space is a yin action, irrespective of whether the action itself is yang in nature.

That's a very simplified view though as all actions and all intents are composed of various shades of yin and yang. However, where wpgtaiji goes awry is in the yang/more yang argument. Hypothetically, if an incoming fist is diverted past you, your action is yang (less yang than the incoming fist), but as the fist passes by it (fist) loses its yangness and becomes more yin, at which time your position is now more yang than it. So it is an ebb and flow, but it is a misrepresentation to say that you meet yang with more yang when in fact you meet yang with less yang but with greater yin intent.

Unless, and wpgtaiji may argue just this point, you believe that in order to divert an attack your yang must be greater than the incoming yang to start with. This however would not, in my opinion, be investing in loss.

EDIT!

edit: incidentally, I think stepping out of the way is a kind of interesting example because it entails neutralization of the attacking energy, but it fails to meet some other important points of taijiquan (sensing, sticking, etc.).


Not really. If you are already sticking to your opponent then stepping out of the way does not necessarily represent losing contact. If you do push hands you should know this (not sure whether you do, no offence intended).
Last edited by Monsoon on Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby pete5770 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:48 pm

I think most people on this forum need to join the military, get involved with special forces, learn to kill. And after a few years of fighting and killing check back for a re-read of your comments on this forum topic.
FWIW I can't remember a time when I could credit Yin-Yang knowledge with saving my life in combat or helping me dig a hole faster to get some cover from incoming. Talking life and death aggression, or just aggression, without any real first hand experience in the matter is......... :?
pete5770
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:16 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby chh » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:50 pm

Monsoon-

In taijiquan that kind of response isn't normally just about stepping out of the way alone, though. At least within YMAA, we train push hands first without stepping explicitly for this purpose- so students learn the body mechanics of neutralization before building the habit of using stepping as a solution.

I haven't sparred enough using this stuff to tell you that I can use it, but the idea is that stepping out of the way by itself doesn't lead the attack into as vulnerable a place, which obviously places a limit on whatever you do next. Stepping away without employing those other components I was talking about is also a pretty vulnerable way of moving- in my experience it's a good way to get knocked down.
chh
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:09 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Monsoon » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:01 pm

@Pete, yeah, been there. My earlier point about aggression in the military was more about control. Uncontrolled aggression will likely get you killed real fast.

@chh, the phrase 'stepping out of the way' was just a useful way of talking about redirecting or avoiding. Not meant literally, although that also applies. When you redirect incoming force you are in effect 'stepping out of the way', even if it simply turning the waist while the feet stay stationary. You generally don't redirect force by appplying MORE force, as I think you already know.

It's a question of applying minimal force to maximum effect.

Please remember I am only talking about the basic premise, not the details of any given move.
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby chh » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:07 pm

Monsoon- sorry, I thought that might be the case, but I got caught up in thinking about stepping :). I know what you mean.

Moving forward on a neutralization is a good option in taiji, too. Maybe that's still 'getting out of the way' in a sense.
chh
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:09 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Monsoon » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:01 am

Yes, moving forward as part of a neutralising move can be very effective, especially if if severely limits your opponent's options. The point is though that the initial neutralising part is more avoidance/absorption, and this must happen in the instant before you move forward.

It's lots of fun.
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby pete5770 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:00 pm

Monsoon wrote:@Pete, yeah, been there. My earlier point about aggression in the military was more about control. Uncontrolled aggression will likely get you killed real fast.



It MAY get you killed real fast and then again it MAY save you and others. All depends on the circumstances. Sometimes you have control over your actions and other times you don't. At times there is no time to plan your reactions, they just happen and the end result is anyones guess. On occasion though you do have time for a bit of thought as to your response to aggression. Take being ambushed for example. The instant it happens, the ususal responce is for everyone to open fire at anything that isn't a friend. This is fairly normal even among well trained soldiers. In a moment or two, so called, calmer heads usually prevail in getting things a bit more organized(if that's possible). Sometimes a person will become a hero in a situation like this and not be able to recall what he did.

What am I trying to say? I don't know exactly. When you're talking life and death uncontrolled aggression the outcome is by no means fixed for either side and responces are totally dependent on the situations, of which there are an unlimited amount.
pete5770
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:16 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby Monsoon » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:10 pm

I can agree with that, for the most part. An army though does not conduct an attack in an uncontrolled aggressive manner. My point really just alludes to the fact that uncontrolled aggression is a randomising factor. I'm not sure many people would want to get into a fight situation where the outcome is entirely random. Of course, for the blindly aggressive they see only one outcome. Yet uncontrolled aggression can be a serious handicap.

Only talking generalities here. It is possible to pick out exceptions to everything, but they don't really alter the premise.
peace and harmony

monsoon
Monsoon
Forum Guru
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 pm

Re: Responsibility, Avoid Aggression.

Postby pete5770 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:17 am

Monsoon wrote:I can agree with that, for the most part. An army though does not conduct an attack in an uncontrolled aggressive manner. My point really just alludes to the fact that uncontrolled aggression is a randomising factor. I'm not sure many people would want to get into a fight situation where the outcome is entirely random. Of course, for the blindly aggressive they see only one outcome. Yet uncontrolled aggression can be a serious handicap.



i would agreee that it's great to have a plan or controlled aggression, if you will. However, as you state, uncontrolled aggression is a randomizing factor. If you are going out every night seeking to be aggressive with people then you have a sort of plan(i.e. a bad one) and YOU get to pick the times and victims(more or less). If you're the object of an ambush, from this person, that is most likely not in whatever plan you had when you set out for the evening. This being the case when this ambush happens your aggression will most likely be somewhat blind(open fire in every direction and on anyone not with you), or random, if you will. Can you plan to try and avoid this type of behavior, if ambushed? I don't think so. In these intances you must DO something, not spend a lot of time thinking about what to do. So you do what you can do by "pulling the trigger" on whatever weapon it is you have at your disposal. Be it a gun, knife, stick, or fist. It's not very pretty and it may or may not work but doing nothing until you come up with a plan is the worst of options.
pete5770
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 560
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:16 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Sparring and Fighting

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron
©2013 YMAA | About YMAA | Privacy Policy |Terms of Use | Permissions | Contact Us