Anti-ground fighting

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Anti-ground fighting

Postby Yue » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:02 am

One of my friends always beats me every time we spar because he is a ground fighter. Anybody have any anti-grappling tips?
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Postby citrus538 » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:14 am

Find a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school. : )

but the most basic technique is the sprawl. I couldn't find any decent videos on YouTube, maybe you'll have better luck.
Last edited by citrus538 on Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby joeblast » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:23 am

stay in your effective range and out of his...or at least get some practice at it without backing yourself into a wall :) you could also start picking up some grappling techniques from him.
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Postby Inga » Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:15 pm

You say he is a ground fighter..he wins because he is more experienced? Heavier? I am a light weight and useless on the floor with the exception of being fast and "slippery", trying to lock down my chin so they can't get an arm round the neck (and arm then lines up with teeth..nip nip) and trying to get up again as fast as possible. Course this last techinque hardly ever works for me, once it's to the floor, I'm pretty much beaten too. I would suggest chin na as well (esp for escaping, finger chin na) and getting a choke on him first, then you can take him down yourself. I have had success with that on occasion. Let us know how you get on.

erm, course i do not really bite folks in class..but we train as if one day we will need these things and i would certainly bite a larger, aggressive attacker in real life if i had the chance and i was desperate
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Postby Yue » Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:12 pm

He's really thin, but he fights well. He wins because he fighst dirty. Typically he pulls my hair down and sweeps my legs out so I land face-first. I try chin na against him and he punches me in the solar plexus.
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Postby darth_freak » Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:22 am

try to show him you can hit his balls, throat or eyes before you're on the ground and immobilized.
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Postby Inga » Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:50 am

Well, if he uses just a few techniques that is to your advantage, you can plan how to defend against those. Next time he grabs your hair down, follow him down, don't resist, follow quickly and take it to the ground first..he may let go when he sees you going for his legs. If you can surprise him with that you may move in fast for a choke, or if you land on top of him hopefully you can keep him from getting a guard and you can pound him on the head (jk, but if he is light you may be able to pin him and tap to show him you have advantage). Move to the side or back when you chin na. Close him off from your vital areas by turning your body.
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Postby Yue » Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:59 am

Thanks for the tips. I'll see how well they work.
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Postby citrus538 » Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:21 pm

Chin na should be fast when you do it. If it stalls after the grab you must immediately do something else, probably hitting him or something evasive. You could possibly transition into another chin na technique but it depends on your body positioning.
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Postby Hermes » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:57 pm

My background is Jiu Jitsu. One day I said to my instructor that he must feel pretty confident about anything he might run into. He looked at his feet a bit sheepishly and said that if the other guy decides to bite you it's all out the window. I noticed throughout the rest of the class that if I were to bite my partner I could get out of most of these invincible locks. When you bite someone you create panic as well as pain. Bite with the side of your mouth, not the front.
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Postby DOM » Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:22 pm

Finally some one and most importantly a ground fighter says what I have been saying since the Gracie's started the craze , bite em and bit em hard .Those you see in the Octagon are with out a doubt Warriors and have my respect .But some of the moves they do ,they get away with because of the rules . Especially when they put their face and neck by there opponents face . Or there face anywhere close enough to there opponents hands were they will be able to apply eye gauge and fish hook techniques .
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Postby jfraser » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:07 am

when he dives for you leg(s), reach down your palm up in a claw hand in go for his eyes, while sprawling your spreading your legs out and straight and behing you.

When working with a known grappler, don't put one leg forward for him to grab.

Good luck! :)
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Postby Dave C. » Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:59 am

Hermes wrote:My background is Jiu Jitsu. One day I said to my instructor that he must feel pretty confident about anything he might run into. He looked at his feet a bit sheepishly and said that if the other guy decides to bite you it's all out the window. I noticed throughout the rest of the class that if I were to bite my partner I could get out of most of these invincible locks. When you bite someone you create panic as well as pain. Bite with the side of your mouth, not the front.


Perhaps, but biting isn't completely unknown in BJJ. Roy Harris is a top BJJ black belt that has talked many times about biting people and what to do when someone else bites you. Biting is not a bad solution sometimes, but it won't get you put of everything.
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Postby ironrogue » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:02 pm

Push hands, Push hands, Push hands. Man it is all in there. In either a single or double leg takedown, they are simply using leverage on your dead angle. If you practice push hands enough, you will learn how to hide your dead angle as well as move it. If you practice low basin push hands, that will help a lot because you will be used to working in that range. If your root is solid, that helps as well.

As for ground fighting, learn how to create space so that your sticking, trapping, chin na, etc. will apply. Have him put you in specific positions on the ground ie. in the guard, him in full mount, him in your guard, you in full mount, yada yada yada. Practice push hands on the ground as well in those positions.
pain is weakness leaving the body
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Postby lilman » Mon May 12, 2008 10:32 am

:) in the U.S.Army, the new school hand to hand combat teaches the ground fighting techniques in jujitsu. When the opponent has you on the ground and in the mount, use your left leg to trap his right foot by bringing it up and using your ankle to trap his, At first your arms will be used to guard your face until you have an opportunity to grab is right shoulder with your left hand, and his right elbow with your right. You should put your thumb in the indention just above his elbow to create pain and make the elbow bend easier. Pull him down as close to your body as you can, and pop your hips up and to your left. Ive used this on people a LOT bigger than me, and it will reverse your position.

As far as push hands, I definately agree. If you do not study Taiji you will not fully understand. There's a reason why ground fighting was omitted from the normal applications. There is no reason you should EVER be on the ground more than a few seconds, if at all. If you are, it is not hard to use techniques to get back up before your in a position like the one described above. With a firm root, listening, adhering, and neutralizing, and avoiding double wieghting, the opponent should be able to come close, but never enter.
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Postby Dvivid » Mon May 12, 2008 11:18 am

Some great info in this thread too:

http://www.ymaa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1386
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Postby Syd » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:12 pm

I have to agree with some others here ... if you are being beaten by a grappler then you are not experienced and skilled enough in your Taijiquan just yet. Taiji is essentially the close quarters stand up grappling art par excellence but it has many subtleties and nuance and takes much longer to learn and acquire the requisite skill set when compared to other arts.

There is no reason a grappler ought to take you down if you are applying correct Taiji principles ... it's almost impossible to advise you in text because it's really in the training and up to your teacher and yourself to pursue proper training to ensure you can deal with all types of attacks. You are not being beaten because the grapplers art is better but he is just better at his art right now than you are at yours.

Grapplers often use the barging principle and this is where in Taijiquan you need to pre-empt his attacks and move in on him AS he moves in you ... if you stay back you are on a Yin movement and he has the Yang movement which will be his advantage ... the classics say when your opponent moves you move, when he withdraws you withdraw ... this is a secret to the real principle tactic of Taiji fighting and that is the pre-emptive attack ... you hit him before he hit's you. This is all very well in theory but you must train hard with non compliant partners to hone it and understand how to make it work.

Keep at it and work harder on intercepting, neutralizing and leading him into emptiness ... BANG! ... lights out. :wink:
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Postby Yue » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:34 am

Hey guys,

I've taken some of your tips like the ones lilman and jfraser mentioned. They work. Unfortunately, now he's doing something else that is possibly just as annoying simply because it's so difficult to counter. I feel it's still relevant to this thread because it's the same opponent and it is used until I drop my guard, at which point he takes it to the ground. Anyway, when you guys read what he does you probably won't stop laughing til Christmas. It's that ridiculous that I can't counter it, or at least it feels that way :cry:

He sort of does this wierd crabwalk-ish thing (not clandestine steps, but an actual crabwalk) where he moves around on his hands and feet, body facing upward, and kicks. A lot. My friends say that it sounds stupid and shouldn't be able to do a thing to me, but they've never actually seen it, so in that's in theory only. And they've given me a few tips that I haven't had any luck with, but that's like three people and this is a whole forum, a lot of which consists of people more experienced than me and my group.

I've tried blocking the kicks, but there's simply too many. I've tried moving down to his level with a crossed-legs stance, that makes it slightly easier but I still can't get around the kicks to hit him. I'm goin kinda crazy :D Help please.
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Postby lilman » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:30 am

:) ok Yue. well if its a technique your looking for, I got one for this. Its a variation of Single whip used in Chen style. :D

Normally you do single whip with your body to the side, it a 30% 70% wieght distributed posture with your body in a T shape to thiers, for lack of a better reference to help you understand. in the Yang style your body is ussually the " l " part of the T. In Chen, in this movement, your gonna be the " -- " part of the T.

How the movement goes, you stand in a Mountain climbing stance, when he starts the kicks, your front arm will make the crane beak and move down like in snake creeps down. The hook should be facing upwards with your arm turned to creat a hook with your beak. wrap it around the first leg to trap it. He will naturally try to show off, by kicing with the other leg, bring the other one around and grab that one. If you can block a kick you can grab it. Then hes in a very very bad position and you can do what you want. A leg/ankle lock with one of the legs, kick to the groin, if you lift him up you can do a kick to the lower back, whatever. Hes completely passive.

If that one doesnt work for you and his kicks are too fast, or hes too phycally strong to grab his feet, too heavy to lift, or whatever, lets say he approaches you with a kick from his left leg, sidestep left and toe kick the leg into his right. try to get at the base on the back of the calf on the back of the leg if possible, or 4 body inches (finger widths) above the knee on the outside of the thigh, either will make that leg numb. meaning he cant do the crab walk anymore :) Its just temporary too, so after a few minutes, hell recover. If you cant find one of those targets the left leg should hit the right and destroy his root, making him fall or loose balance anyway.
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Postby Yue » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:23 pm

Sweeeeeet :D Thanks, either one of those techniques would probably work, though the second one seems a bit more likely for me to pull off. I'll let you know how it works.
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