Realistic Fight Ending Strikes and Sparring Favorites

Discuss sparring, training applications in a competition environment, or even in real-life (fighting, self-defence). Please no violence!
And stay on topic.

Moderators: Dvivid, Inga, nyang

Postby poasmu » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:33 am

Ending a fight while being on the..

- Offensive side:
A so called "Brazilian kick" usually ends it for me. A toe kick faked to the groin drops their guard, then the roundhouse gets their head and drops them. You can ask Inga, I use it on her all the time :)

- Defensive side:
It usually depends on what is coming at me, but I find that a quick defensive sidekick slows a person down in time for me to run away. It either stuns them or knocks them back/down.

-- I almost always play a defensive role. I don't really like the idea of being offensive. I'd rather sit back and wait it out and watch for my opponent's mistakes. Eric knows this. He used to get frustrated at me for backing up and angling away all the time :P I also don't do very well with close ranged combat.

Favorite sparring technique:
Not really sure about this one. I like to experiment with different things. My comfort zone is to keep distance because I have good range and am usually faster than my opponents. However, I've recently been working on trying to fight more close ranged. I'd say I'm up for anything to experiment.. then pick and choose what's good for me :)
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Postby silverfox » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:54 am

Sometimes, but not always I feel that is good to be offensive in the fight to force a mistake from my opponent. If I set a really fast pace in a fight and my opponent cannot keep the pace mentally or physically then a mistake occurs. I like to capitalize on these forced mistakes.

Defensively I like to intercept my opponents attack with a simultaneous block and attack of my own. This is where my roots in Wing Tsun take over for me as a fighter.

I believe that in a fight one person has an offensive mindset and the other typically has a defensive mindset. In a split second I like to intercept the offense and immediately put the other person on defense before they have a chance to consciously react.

They can only react physically in that split second of change and this is one way in which a forced mistake is revealed if the other person is skilled enough to capitalize on the mistake instantly and follow up to unravel their opponent.

I am constantly working on ways to properly and skillfully intercept in Wing Tsun, Taijiquan, and Shaolin. I have found some success in sparring, but still need to develop this skill in all ranges not just close or middle range, but definately the long range.

I appreciate all your intelligent and well articulated comments regarding this topic. Keep the comments coming!
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and learn how to harmonize with nature and others around you"

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Postby lilman » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:09 pm

In a way I agree with T on this one. sometimes its not necessary to "end" a fight with an attack, meaning knocking out the opponent/killing the opponent. Yet sometimes it is necessary. But on a one on one fight I like to play with my opponents and follow the Taiji classics and make my opponent feel no matter what he does, he cannot win. 2 examples;

I was sparring one time with an opponent about my speed, a lil slower, and a lot bigger, he threw a right jab. I used a technique I learned from my teacher, similar to Dr. Yang's Yang Ban Hou's 108 movement form technique fist under elbow. Instead of stepping out deflecting with left arm, stepping to the right, deflecting in to the left with the rignt hand, then fist under elbow, I used a deflect to the right with the left hand, a deflect to the right with the right hand, used the left hand to complete a circle, and as soon as the left hand connected to the opponents right hand, used ward off energy with my right hand against the opponents head to spin him around, and pushed his back away from me. He was so dumbfounded at what happened, he just stopped.

Another time I was sparring with a faster opponent, again, slightly bigger than me, He was moving too fast to deflect, stick, or use chin na, so I adhered and yielded to his attacks until he got too close and tried to use a powerfull right handed punch to my solar plexus, I neutralized and yielded to the right to pull him slightly off balance, stepped behind and used Dr, Yang's strike the tiger posture from behind, I didnt strike him, but wrapped his neck and pulled back his head to inhibit movement. All he could do was give up.
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Postby jfraser » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:10 am

I was sparring one time with an opponent about my speed, a lil slower, and a lot bigger, he threw a right jab. I used a technique I learned from my teacher, similar to Dr. Yang's Yang Ban Hou's 108 movement form technique fist under elbow. Instead of stepping out deflecting with left arm, stepping to the right, deflecting in to the left with the rignt hand, then fist under elbow, I used a deflect to the right with the left hand, a deflect to the right with the right hand, used the left hand to complete a circle, and as soon as the left hand connected to the opponents right hand, used ward off energy with my right hand against the opponents head to spin him around, and pushed his back away from me. He was so dumbfounded at what happened, he just stopped.



Is this not a form of "Play Pi Pa" or an elbow break, which is one option. :?:
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Postby lilman » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:47 pm

Well its kinda hard to explain, easier to show. Have you ever seen Dr. Yang Jwing Ming perform the 108 movement form? When he does Fist Under Elbow, he neutralizes with his elbow to the inside, left arm then right arm, hands pass infront of face, as he steps to the right, before he goes into the fist under elbow posture. If you read this then watch him you'll understand. (see his dvd/book, Tai Chi Chuan, Classical Yang Style)

The difference in how I describe it is the left hand crosses face, the right deflects out, and circles into the fist under elbow posture. So the only difference is the right goes out instead of in.

The functional difference in application is, Dr Yang shows his application as left arm netralizes and grabs left hand attack and holds it across the body, then opponent attacks with right hand, your right hand is used to neutralize left and lock opponent up and push. Which you can picture if you see him do it.

Then with the application I learned, the opponent attacks with th right or left hand, doesnt matter, you neutralize with your left hand to the right, right hand immediately takes over and circles down, Left hand follows the nuetralization to circle down, left hand takes over the circle at about your center of gravity as you step forward,as your left hand continues the circle controlling opponents punching hand, your right hand is used to control the opponents head to circle it back and towards the right( (ie the fist under elbow posture). At the end of the 2 circles the opponent will be facing away from you and you just push or use a cavity strike to the back.

The difference between this and play the Pi Pa, is you do not step with play the Pi Pa. Pi pa is used as a "firm the center" application to lock up the opponents arm in defense of an attack. The application I mentioned is more like a total body neutralization to stop the attack and push the opponent away.
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To Step or not step with PLAY The PI PA

Postby jfraser » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:58 am

The difference between this and play the Pi Pa, is you do not step with play the Pi Pa. Pi pa is used as a "firm the center" application to lock up the opponents arm in defense of an attack. The application I mentioned is more like a total body neutralization to stop the attack and push the opponent away.
As you are pushing him away, I suggest you break his elbow, pull out it of its scoket, as you step and throw him away, or back he will come :evil:.

In the way I learned Play PiPa there are several varitions which includes elbow breaks and stepping. I would encourage you to not focus on the martial functions that come from the thinking mind. Have an idea of what they may mean, but don't fixate on them. when you get to the point you can really relax your whole boby, inlcuding your legs, and your mind is empty (in a meditative state), the TJQ movements get programed into your "deep mind" and you may be very suprised what emeges when you really need a movement in a street fight. TOO many minds can get you realy hurt or killed. :) :wink: :idea:
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Postby lilman » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:20 pm

:-) thanks again jfrasier. I do understand that there are more than 1 application to each form, and the point of learning different applications and different forms is to ultimately reach formlessness. The point I was trying to make in the above applications I described was I was able to end the fight peacefully without breaking an arm or killing my opponent. It depends on how angry they are and if they know they've already been beaten or not if they will come back. So brutal tactics are not always the best.
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sparring

Postby javierFL » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:28 pm

:D i am happy to be a part of YMAA. this will be first post to the forum! and how interesting that i just got done with a sparring session!
any of you guys that have seen me know i'm short in stature, 5'6" so i am always fighting a bigger guy. i am happy to say that i've managed to avoid a street confrontation, but i do enjoy mixing it up in the ring. having said that, because of my stature, i've found that my front-leg jab to the stomach is pretty dependable and can set up a another strike that can be more devastating. i also use a defensive front side kick when my apponent is attacking and reaching. it's funny though cause after having sparred the same apponent for a couple a sessions, they begin to catch on.
put me in the street, not sure what will come out of me. i always joke about the chop to the throat but damn i dont want to kill anyone.
i always got to worry about the slam too! ...yeah in the street i avoid at all costs...is that lame?
...slowly but surely
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Postby yat_chum » Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:45 am

Hi and welcome to the forum, there is nothing lame about avoiding a fight. As one of my old Sifu's would say "fighting is for animals".
yijing zhidong

use stillness to overcome movement
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Postby Syd » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:15 pm

Describing my fave shots is very tough in text but I will try as best I can. Most circumstances where people are attacked in the street are nearly always of the sloppy hay maker variety late at night. Most of the time something leads up to this point and the moment is generally well telegraphed. Here's my game over shots.

In response to a right hay maker or straight right to the head.

1# - This comes straight out of the opening from the Yang form after the arms are lowered and begin to make their anti clockwise arc to the left and down. This is performed however pre-emptively as the attacker strikes, you strike just before.

The left hand cuts down into the inside of the attackers inside forearm dragging the Qi back along it's energic path, the wrong direction toward Neiguan ( This is an energy draining strike ) - this blocks and redirects the punch harmlessly away to your left as you have sunk on your right leg slightly, turning the waist generating fajin up from your root leaving you at a 45 degree angle to your attacker.

Your right hand has simultaneously cut across the attackers neck/throat with a palm up knife edge strike with a devastating shot to the carotid artery and an array of points in this area - take your pick it's not pretty. So to recap both the left and right hands strike almost simultaneously but the left hand strikes fractionally before the right which now carries through and across the attackers left side neck cutting down across their chest towards their right arm where we set up the coup de grace.

The left hand where you have struck the inside of the attackers forearm slides down and now grips their wrist, in one movement quickly folds the forearm back up against the bicep while your right arm slips underneath and back around their right arm. Those familiar with Chin Na or Baguzhang might know what comes next. Now both the left and right arms link up and lock around the attackers right arm in a type of front reversed chicken wing. All you need do now is step to your left and across the right side of the attackers body and literally violently twist your entire body down and to the right whilst exploding with fajin ... this is much like a death roll of a Crocodile in Australia where they lock onto their prey and just barrel roll ... you basically would be turning your opponents shoulder 160 degrees in it's socket and totally destroying the persons mobility there for life.

The final step as you turn your body to the right is throw them since you have now stepped behind their right leg with your right leg ... you simply raise your right leg as your turn and they will go down. The aftermath of such a response is nothing short of devastating the result of which would likely leave your attacker knocked out and with a huge medical bill for shoulder reconstruction or worse. If that's not enough, once your attacker has been thrown you can opt to maintain control of the arm and further break it at the elbow using various methods.

There are plenty of other variations on this both inside and outside shots that effect different points and locations ... but I'll leave room for somebody else ... that's possibly my favourite though and it's a very natural reaction and response from just about any basic casual position on the street.

Best. Syd. :)
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Postby lilman » Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:38 am

Thats assming you didnt kill them with a strike to the cartoid artery...
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Postby Syd » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:41 pm

Lilman,

As I said in my post, they could be knocked out or worse ... depending on the force with which you strike the corotid your results may well vary but any blow at medium force or more is certainly capable of causing death. The way Erle teaches Taiji is as the art of overkill ... the principle of many of these techniques being that you would likely be using this art in a life and death situation ... and you always want to assume more than one assailant, something many martial arts don't allow for ... so you want to make sure your attacker goes down and stays down so if you can kill him more than once, do it.
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Postby lilman » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:20 am

My teacher teaches similar to Erle. He teaches Dim Mak, and preaches taking the opponent out quickly, and effectively, and ussually shows us applications for 1 or more opponents. I personnaly take the view its not always your best interest to kill your opponent. Where I come from, no one can take a beating, and if you kill 1 person, you deal with 100. If you beat someone down, their just gonna come back, next time with a knife or gun, and if you kill someone their homeboys have to get their eye for an eye. Also the law ussually comes down hard on martial arts practitioners when they kill someone in self defense unnecessarilly.

My point is, it may be best to put the opponent in a position where they realize your better, and just give up. If their good, or have a weapon, beat them down, ussually not kill them, unless its 100% necessary. Either way where im from, evey fight has a consequence. If a student who cannot control their power tries that application, they could put themselves in a bad position. Thats why Im carefull with the how and why of some of the things I teach students or post on here, and ussually clarify what could have a potential of killing. Not trying to knock your post or criticise, just saying for clarification. Someone may go to a bar, get in a fight and try that, and either end up getting jumped, killed, or go to jail for life.
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Postby Syd » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:42 am

Lilman,

I hear you, I do not discuss these applications lightly but I have also specified the consequences in my original post when I stated that your attacker "could be knocked out or worse" ... I have mentioned this several times now also. It is always up to the individual to decide for themselves how far to take a technique and only they can weigh up the options in the moment.

While I agree that you don't have to kill your attacker you have to understand that if somebody is hyped up enough to attack you, you have no idea how far they are prepared to take things ... you may also only get one shot at taking this person out and if you try getting tricky thinking you can show them how skillful you are and getting them to back down after you perform a nice throw ... chances are they'll come back harder and more determined than before - ( ego plus booze equals idiots with a death wish ) that's the reality on the street more often than not - when people are committed they rarely walk away and more often than not they don't have the sense to.

Taking somebody down too lightly may sometimes be your big mistake and if they have friends then they are likely to be right there ready to kick your head in right along with the first guy. If you take the first guy out nice and hard, chances are that will send a message better than if you simply throw him ... he'll get back up, dust himself off and then look at his buddies and it's really on then.

The point of the post was the technique ... how far you take the technique depends on the person and the situation. I have no fear of anybody reading that material and trying to make it work ... a skilled fighter will know how already and what that means and those that aren't will likely never know what I am talking about. If people want to hurt people there are easier methods than what I have described above ... guns, knives etc, take your pick. I get taught and I practice sudden violence ... my response is proportionate to the incoming force and intent of the opponent - but if it's a choice between me and them you know the answer.

If you have to kill somebody in a fight then you have to do it ... you don't do it lightly but if the threat is there I'll happily roll those dice, live and take the thing to court and argue self defense, rather than end up dead meat in the street. If I have to move city after the fact that's fine with me, I love to travel.

P.S - The likelihood of a life and death situation arising for most people in a fight is so remote as to not be worth examining but should it ever come to that ... the best way to avoid such is common sense and listen to instinct, I have always been able to sense trouble and avoid it - it's not rocket science.

You can easily modify the technique I mentioned above by simply turning a strike to the neck/corotid to a simple palm strike to the jaw/head which would likely knock them out cold before they even hit the ground with the broken arm you gave them after hitting them the first time. :lol:
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Postby lilman » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:00 am

Right, but not everyone in this forum is skilled or even well trained, and with a lil imagination they can know and try what you described. I was just further clarifying your "could be knocked out or worse". And remember, not saying anything bad about anyone in this forum, cuz I dont personally know everyone who visits, but common sense aint that common.

I have been in street fights before. I know what to expect. Where I come from a street fight could turn to life in death in an instant, or weeks, months, years after the fact. You just havent been in the right neighborhoods to see the life and death situations. :) They do still exist.

I have never been in a street fight, or seen anyone in a streetfight that couldve been dealt with without seriously hurting the opponent, unless there was one or more opponent or weapons drawn. The reason I say that, is most drunks come in swinging all crazy, which is easy to counter if your well trained. Same with people when their angry, they just throw random punches, or try to wrestle you down. Most street fighters do too. If they've been to prison numerous times or learned how to fight correctly, there may be occasions when hurting them may be your only option, but I dont think those measures should be taken unless it has to.

Moving right now may be fine for you, but when your married and have kids and other people that depend on you, its not fair to them to hurt someone and have to move out of fear of retaliation, or even worse, killed in a driveby because you didnt control yourself in a fight.

If you have a one on one fight in private, and you win, if they dont have any bruises theres no one who knows. Pride is more important to most. If there all beat up they have to explain. If their in a gang, that means you just gave everyone in the gang a broken nose. If its in a bar, then its more than likely gonna be many against just you. So then you have to decide if you can win without hurting someone, then whatever you decide you have to do, you have to stick to your guns and not change the battle plan. But then it can also change your whole life.

I feel when your a senior to someone in MA and your giving advice or trying to teach, you should teach right. You should not half give info which could lead someone astray. Im not trying to be offensive of saying you intentionally are, but people could try those movements and really mess themselves up without the proper warnings... Just trying to relay that message.
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Postby Syd » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:57 am

Lilman,

1 - Well you seem to be singling me out of all the other people posting here ... for the last time I made it very clear what the possible consequences of my description could be ... people make their own choices beyond that.

2 - I am not professing to teach anybody anything ... the question was what are YOUR Fight Ending moves etc ... I was describing what I have learned and what I personally would choose to put into practice, You Tube is full of people showing people more than what I have described in my previous post so let's get things into perspective.

3 - What you do in your neighborhood and what is required where you live is totally your business and down to your own requirements, I do not profess to tell you or advise you to do anything one way or the other. I am merely expressing my own opinion and what makes sense where I live and how I see things in my own life. I have been extremely successful in staying out of trouble and avoiding conflict all my life and I believe my advice has merit since the proof is in the pudding.

The suggestion I don't live in a bad area has no bearing since trouble can find you anywhere in my city regardless of the neighborhood ... let's not turn this into a "my area vs your area" discussion.

I'll refrain from further comment on any of this and even offer to edit/delete my original post if you find it's content too potent and my delivery too irresponsible; but personally I think you're overreacting.

P.S - Death can come at any time in a fight from the simplest punch to the face ... even by people with no skill. The area where I used to live and train had a road rage incident result in the death of a man who was sitting in his drivers seat with the window down ... the other guy got out of his car, walked up to the open window and punched him in the head only once and killed the guy. That's a life and death situation right there ... there were no fancy techniques or martial details to speak of ... just one solid punch. That's why I have no problem posting a description of what works for me ... it's inconsequential to anybody else but me.

Best, :o
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Postby lilman » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:57 am

:) I do apologize syd if it seemed I was singling you out. I also was expressing my opinion on the subject. I actually did post a few other times on this same thread about the same thing.

The reason I post things like this is because I know people that have tried things just because they were told it would work, and it did, and messed up their lives royally. And yes, that was THIER descisions. And I view forums like this as learning tools, eveything we post here someone reads, and learns from, whether its good or bad. Its ok if you think that it doesnt effect anyone but you, because your sharing YOUR experience, and yes, thats what your doing, but people read these things and try them in sparring, fighting, and Im sure some people read this stuff and try to use it to bully people, and Im sure they do the same off of You Tube. The thing is I do not post or read posts on You Tube, accept to review forms. If I did, I would post comments on You Tube of the potential damage you could cause if you try it... Thats why I mention teaching, a lot of people dont realize, regardless if your "teaching" or not, this is a source for a lot of people that do not have teachers or are beginners to Martial arts, or are just here looking for advice. So if you want to or not, your teaching... When I mentioned my area I was just commenting on the, theres rarely life and death situations thing you said earlier on this post. It was not to play the My area is worse than yours game, cuz Im out of that area now, and Im sure I'd still rather be living in your area than here...

Sorry if I offended you with any of this Syd, it was not my intention. My intention is to learn as much information on here as I can, and give even more, and give correctly and with precaution, since I view this forum as a learning source. I will stay off the subject as well and be more carefull not to offend if I reply to any of your posts in the future...

:) best wishes and good luck...
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Postby yemista » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:06 pm

I think if you are attacked your best bet is to fight as hard as you can and run as soon as you get a chance. Street thugs who would attack you like this are usually cowards and if you show them you can stand up to them and hit them hard they will usually lose heart and not want to fight. They attack people they deem weak that they can beat easily. If they decide to come after you again, I think most of them if you dont use something theyd consider dirty and you dont strike until they strike first will not bother enough to come after you, and if you do happen to encounter them if you act respectfully and show no fear will leave you alone. If one of them is crazy enough to hunt you down and shoot you there is not much you can do, but I think in general they will leave you alone.
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Postby lilman » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:04 am

My current teacher explains something called the "eye of the tiger". What that means is when you fight (even with Taiji) you should have a certain amount of visciousness, once you start a fight, your commited to fighting. So it comes to the point of hurting your opponent, you cannot be afraid to hurt your opponent, break bones or kill. You cannot also be afraid of getting hurt. But if you HAVE to be able to tell when its necessary to do so. If the opponent has a weapon or theres more than one, by all means, it can be justified to break bones and kill. If its one on one, and your worried about retaliation, it may not be a good idea unless unavoidable.

Street thugs from my experience are ussually not cowards and their intent is to seriously injure/kill in every fight, and them losing a fight means certain retaliation. Not just by them, but also their homeboys. Its an endless circle of violence. My family was in the middle of a 4 year gang war just because one of my brothers beat up some guy talking mess to him. Its definately not this in EVERY case, I have seen some cowardly "gang members"... but as a martial artist, you should know how to distinguish the difference. What I say on here means no more than what anyone else posts, its just my opinion, and a simple comparison, but I would rather caution people so they dont get retaliated upon when its not necessary.

I read a story about Yang Luchan (dont know ifits true or not). He had a competition fight and ended up seriously wounding an opponent, whom eventually died. Afterwards his family was looking for revenge, so Yang left town and moved to a different city. He stayed there for many years working for a salt merchant, and never shown his fighting skills. One day, he came home and heard a racket in the storehouse. He went into the storehouse and saw several thieves have rounded up the workers and had them tied up. Yang came in, and beat all the thieves easily. He then untied the merchants and rounded up the thieves. The thieves happened to be related to the man he killed. The salt merchant then told his tale and thats when Yang went to teach for the government. Then later on after becoming well known as a martial artist, one day he heard a knock at his front door. A member of the same family attacked him with a knife when he opened the door. He disarmed the opponent and the man ran away.

When people want revenge there is nothing more important to them. And in some cases it wont stop until you KILL all your opponents. Yang couldve avoided this issue by using restraint unless it wasnt possible. If it wasnt possible that one moment changed his whole life. Of course you cant live your lives in fear of revenge, but why put yourself in this kind of position when its not necessary? If it is necessary, you must, and you must welcome the change.

Another story I heard on the other end of the spectrum, a Taiji player got in a fight at a club and had peacefully subdued 3 bouncers successfully, and just warned them about messing with him. The other 3 came, in plain sight, and they all beat him down severly. He got jumped by 6 bouncers. This is a situation where it may be a good idea to go ahead and take out some of the fighters so you yourself can win or escape. He lost because he stopped after subduing the 3 bouncers. If he would've kept going and/or injured those bouncers, he would've been fine cuz it wouldve been 3 on one again. He couldnt handle 6. He would've also had a case in court becuase they were obviously using excessive force.

I am personally in the bad kind of position back home because of one of my family member's doings, which was way worse than beating someone up, and put all our lives in danger, so I kinda know the feeling. I have been put in positions where I had to seriously hurt people and I did it. Its not that you should never hurt people, or you will loose fights or your life. Its that you should know when and when not to and discriminate wisely. I would rather tell people dont if you dont have to, then set them up for a lifetime of watching their back not knowing if anyone you pass on the streets are friend or foe. You may not know some gang member's faces but believe me, if their REAL gang members, if they want you, they know who you are. Martial Arts are for self defense, but no bare hand, on the street, martial artist can defend against a gun 20 ft away.

In summary just use caution and good judgement when your fighting on the street, cuz the outcome of a simple streetfight could change your entire lives.
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Re: Realistic Fight Ending Strikes and Sparring Favorites

Postby brer_momonga » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:44 am

People call around Russian spammers they go the house
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