Vegetarian

[Pausa]

Hello
i have a question about to be vegetarian or not practicing "embrionic breathing" meditation. In the book of Dr. yang report about 2 ancient scripts where it is advice to be vegetarian if you want practice meditation but in the last chapter he give his personal advice and say to be not vegetarian. What do you think about it? My taichi sifu say that i can't be vegetarian if i want practice an martial art, but i think that for the meditation is mutch better, it is 3 months that i am vegetarian and my aggressiveness is very low and i don't think that my taichi is worse.

thanks

[Tosh]

I'm a vegatarien since I was 8 and I never had more problems then other people at martial arts sometimes even less, you just need to make sure you eat enough different food, like eating egg, beans, nuts en tofu.

[OnlyMe]

If I remember correctly, if your are practing meditation for enligtnment, then being a veggie is good. I think it has to do with them believing when eating an animal you also eat the emotions of that animal. Something along those lines. But as long as your getting a good source of protien, then being a veggie shouldnt affect your martial arts at all.

[James_Grinter]

In a recent post somewhere else in this forum I mentioned both Kirlian Photography and my inclination towards vegetarianism in the coming months.

I do it for a variety of reasons, some of which I will share quite briefly.

The a vegetarian diet is much less expensive to maintain than one which includes meat.

Healthwise I believe the vegetarian diet to be superior. Proportionally, plant foods contain a higher ratio of protein to fat than does meat, and also contain when taken together an abundance of the essential amino acids, and if fat is what is desired, plenty of wholesome fatty acids abound in soy protein, tofu or bean curd.

OnlyMe was quite right to point out that we are eating the emotions of the animal. This is quite true, imagine a pig, an animal more intelligent than a dog, crowded into a house of slaughter with tens of thousands of brothers, sisters, cousins, parents, children... It is a horrible reality to contemplate... This process elicites in the animal a sympathetic nervous system response, they release hormones and chemicals into their bodies, which we then consume.

The absence of meat in a diet allows for room for a wider range and volume of sublime manifestations of natures abundance.

The visceral eating of meat taxes heavily the digestive system, with the processing of acrid decayed flesh, however well cooked and sauced. The absence of meat from the diet reduces the load on the digestive system, over time it will attain a greater sensitivity, so it can get upset more easily if one consumes animal products or unhealthy food, but also will function in a capacity facilitating much better health.

We live in a world with enough food resources to feed more than the present population but now this is not happening. It is because most of the vast soy protein crop (particularly of America) rich in protein and essential amino acids, is fed to animals to bulken them up quickly to be killed and eaten. At least 9 kilograms of soybean must be fed to an animals to produce 1 kilogram of its meat due to energy lost through heat, metabolic processes etc. Very inefficient. It is like we manufacture deceased feedbags, devoid of live food, containing only the proteins of some of the food they have eaten in the past, massacring and eating them. Horrible to do with a collection of living beings. I would say almost absurd, of course not if viewed in the context of tradition, but in a possibly questionable practice, I paraphrase 'etheogens' from a previous post, whom paraphrases Dr. Yang "he emphasizes the need to be open-minded but scientific, respectful of tradition without mindlessly aping it" We live in a time when killing and eating animals is not necessary for most peoples survival, it is an extraneous luxury which involves the suffering of so many beings. I apologise if my views do not reflect those of the two individuals whom I made reference to.

As one would expect, the inefficient usage of soy potentially of World satiety value, produces a lot of waste in the form of animal excrement, which is largely flushed into the sewer of humanity, the sea. I do not have enough immediate information to render this situation more accurately, but the massive proportions of this practice should be of some guidance.

The final point I will make here regards the previous horrendous scene of the slaughterhouse. Truly the stuff of nightmares..

I do not condemn meat eaters, however the effect of their individual actions, while not large, are neither negligible.

This reply was not as brief as I had intended, however this issue is one of paramount importance for individuals and the collective future of humanity.

I invite you all to learn from a man who articulates this subject much better than I have here. In his 1913 paper on Vegetarian and Occultism, C.W. Leadbeater.

Thank you for your time.

[Flip]

i can put one more vote on the veggie train. if youeat properly there is no reason you will not be healthier (not just 'as healthy') than a meat eater. I would recommend no milk/cheese and even no eggs. Even if you eat them as additives in food, but just cut out items like having a glass of milk, your health will improve.

apart from health, i agree with the above that we have a moral obligation to be vegetarian. The natural resources we use to create our meat diet is not sustainable. The amount of water and arable land used to make a hamburger could make five times as much veg food. Then add to that the fact that we transport the food, use machines to manufacture it, and by the end we're also using a ton of oil to make a hamburger too. This is not sustainable.

the animal rights thing, a lot of people just don't seem to get, unfortunately, but hopefully if you can demonstrate that humans are suffering and dying because of our diet, then maybe people will change.

anyhow, make the change - your bowels will thank yoU!

[DOM]

It's true are diets are killing use.The way we purduce food is sickining.But it is not just the meat that is making us sick,it is also all the poisons put on are fruits and vegies and the genetic altering of all are food.And of course are water supply.Fish should be one of the best foods to eat,except now just about all fish is loaded with pestisides mercury,and pcb.It is also the thousands of dangerous chemicals that the F.D.A allows to be put in all prepaired food.The only way to avoid alot of this is to eat organic food,stay away from prepared foods and detox your body on a regular basis.Meat is not bad for you it is the way it is purduced raised and slauterd.We are omnivours,we are geneticaly designed to eat just about anything.Infact are body will break down and digest meat much easier than fruits and vegitables.The key is a balance diet of clean fresh food and water.Not an easy task today!I f you want to be a vega hey more power to you,but it dose not meen it is the best and only way to eat. .But I do beleave if one wants to persue gigong for spiritual enlightenment you would most definatly have to become a vega,being a meat eater most definatly makes you more emotional and aggressive.Becoming a vega is not an easy task one has to first now how to eat the right foods.They need to now about complet and incomplet protiens and how to mix incomplet protiens to make a complet protien.The easiest way is to mix a complet protien with a dairy product or soy.It also will take your body some time to adust to eating this way.

[entheogens]

Just my two cents worth on this matter. Quite frankly, in my experience not everyone is cut out to be a vegetarian. It is important to stay in tune with your body and be truthful to yourself as to whether a vegetarian diet works for you. If you find yourself getting progressively weak, pale or sick, it's time to reconsider. In any case, I would recommend an ovo-lacto vegetarian regime, not a vegan one. I have just seen too many pale, sickly-looking, and wasting-away vegans. Of course, there are always exceptions.

For some vegetarians, especially those over thiry, there seems to be yet another problem: obesity. There are a lot of Indian vegetarians here in the San Francisco Bay Area and I have noticed that a lot of them are fat. There is a tendancy for some vegetarians who are not getting enough nourishment to eat lots of grain. That may be ok when you are 22, but as you enter your 30s your metabolism slows down and the grain (even whole grown) will trigger insulin and get stored as fat. My point is to make sure that you get a well-balanced diet.

I think the notion of supposed aggression from meat-eating needs to be challenged. There are people in the Indian subcontinent who are vegetarians and are as aggressive as hell. On the other hand, tibetans eat lots of meat and are not known to be particularly aggressive. Perhaps a better example are the Eskimos who traditionally sustained themselves almost exclusively from animal products, yet were one of the most pacific people one could hope to find.

As far as the spirituality thing, again, I will not that the tibetans, and I am talking about monks, eat lots of animal meat. When you think about it, what constitutes the difference between a vegetable and an animal. Do we think it is more wrong to eat a chicken than a bull because chickens resemble us more. The truth is that on this plane of existence, life feeds off of other life. No way around that unless you are thinking of becoming a breatharian. It's a perhaps unfortunate rule of life and there is really no getting round it.

[Flip]

I've heard this same argument from friends who eat meat, "so why is it ok to kill a plant, they're alive too..."

This is, in my view, a diversionary tactic that people use to avoid dealing with the fact that they're contributing to the suffering of animals and to serious environmental damage.

I'm aware of evidence that shows plants are more sentinent than rocks, but we have no reason to believe that a piece of corn suffers in a farmers field. Also, the vegetables that we eat have already ripened and lived their natural life. This is not true of the animals that we eat.

My opinion, which I respect that you disagree with, is that ANYBODY can be a vegetarian (or vegan) and be healthy, but as you note, not everybody is mentally cut out for it or is aware enough to make the correcet diet changes.

I do agree that it's foolish to associate aggression with meat eating.

[Inga]

I have been a vegetarian half my life, and have come to the conclusion that it is a diet which suits me, with my metabolism and my personal tastes. I do work hard at it, to eat a healthy balance of foods. Since I took up training with more intensity I have had to work even harder, but partly that is due to my poor appetite. Small frequent meals seem to give me the fuel I require. I have no idea if what I do is “right” or “wrong”, but my doctor says I am very fit, and I have the energy to regularly attend class and work out at home. I’ll admit to being called ‘scrawny’ (i prefer 'lean' haha) and on the pale side (both traits courtesy of father's genes), however would not go so far as to say I am gaunt or have an unnatural pallor (as I have known people who are – like Mavis at uni who only ate chocolate, cheese, beer and tea..scary). Sorry to drift off the thread of qigong, but this is a popular post, the veggie - “to be or not to be” in particular the concern about the ability to undertake heavy training on a vegetarian diet. I can’t vouch for this as I haven’t tried it, but I would like to think that if I compensated my dietary input, I could achieve heavy training - rest of the body willing of course : ) Ultimately one’s diet has to be an individual choice based on many factors. I’m sure contributors more experienced and better read than I can add more here. But it would seem to me that if we are able to point to healthy and successful examples of vegetarian martial artists as well as meat eating martial artists than i would hesitate to say there is a hard and fast golden rule.

[Flip]

re: successful vegetarina martial artists. I believe that the shaolin monks (as in the ones from China that go on tour and perform in theatres) are vegetarian.

[DOM]

Do's any one have info on the diets of the monks.It would be very interesting to see.And could prove to be very helpfull.

[yeniseri]

The touring Shaolin monks are not always vegetarians. It is about balance. A lot of them seem to be meat eaters since that type of physique and stamina rarely come from being a vegetarianism.

[yat_chum]

Can sport and vegetarianism mix?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/s ... 238415.stm

[Flip]

The touring Shaolin monks are not always vegetarians. It is about balance. A lot of them seem to be meat eaters since that type of physique and stamina rarely come from being a vegetarianism.

Where did you get this information from?

For many buddhists, diet is not about the 'balance' of killing animals for food sometimes and sometimes not, they simply don't do it.

Whether they were healthy or not, I don't know, but I do know that for at least as long as there have been kung-fu monks, there have been vegetarian kung fu monks who train to an extent that we probably can't fathom in the west.

There are/were some bhuddist monks who were not vegetarian, because the only food they ate was that was given as alms, and they ate what was given to them. But I am not aware of the monks at the shaolin temple doing this.

[How Ming]

I suppose if someone cant go full time vegetarian they could go on a vegetarian fasting, for a month or several month. I think this is a good alternative if one is worry babout not having enough energy.

[Dvivid]

PS - there are many touring "Shaolin Monks" groups who perform Wushu. Only one of these groups is really from Shaolin Temple. The others are wushu practitioners, who are neither from Shaolin, nor are they monks. Its theater. Fun to watch though - a bunch of us from YMAA Headquarters saw them in Downtown Boston a couple years ago. It was...okay.

[Yatish Parmar]

I didn't get far down the BBC link:

"The other thing that animal products are good for is high quality protein. The protein in meat is better quality than protein found in plant products."

That's not true. The best *quality* protein is from combining Lentils and Rice. The most quantity of protein is from beef (I think). You need less of the lentils and rice because the quality is higher.

[Rosco]

Hey,

I've been vegetarian for more than 5 years now, and as most people here have said, have not suffered any problems related to my personal eating habits whatsoever. I firmly believe that ones personal choice to eat, or not to eat meat has absolute zero impact on one's ability to practice Taiji, play a sport, or do anything. I would seriously question this with my instructor; in fact, this is the very first time I've heard of anyone saying something even close to this.

I do know a few people who eat almost nothing but meat, and their health suffers as a result. I personally work very hard to ensure I am getting everything I need, in particular proper iron and protein, as these can often be lacking in an improperly balanced vegetarian diet. But, as with everything, balance is the key.

I must say, I'm very impressed with many of the replies in this thread - many of you out there really have your facts straight, to me this is very encouraging! However, I must end with saying, that I must reiterate that its a personal choice, and that we should never judge one another based solely on that. I have many good friends who choose to eat meat, and although for me I 've decided that it is morally wrong for me, I cannot, and will not, try to force others to share my opinion. Everyone in is (or should be and feel that they are) free to decide - however, to be honest., I admit that I wish everyone DID share my opinion But we can still have dreams, right??

Best wishes,

Rosco

[Inga]

the vegetarian diet is a thorny subject as it has spiritual and moral issues for many. my take as a long standing vegetarian is that, at end of the day, all foods offer basic nutrients, clearly some more than others. looking solely at the issues of nutrition and fitness does it matter what form the nutrients take so long as the body is kept fit and healthy (and i accept some balances of foods offer different advantages). humans are omnivores, we evolved to eat meat - we are still designed to eat meat. and meat offers a source of protein, other issues about it aside, it is a basic fact. by the same token, we are designed to eat plants and their by-products. proportionally how one prefers to eat these foods must ultimately be individual choice. just as there are proponents that the vegetarian diet is superior and should ideally followed by all there are some meat eaters who are firm in the belief that it is unhealthy to avoid meat. and plenty of folks in the middle. it's something that can never be resolved, but i agree, it is interesting to discuss it here with informed opinions.

[jellybean]

You have to enjoy what you eat.
Back in the old days, meat and eggs and such were consider expensive. So many people didn't really go researching on the higher protein products. And for sure, monks are pretty broke at that time also.

Preparing meat products also takes more time. It's not like apple where you can just pick and eat. There's two main factor you must take care of before you eat the meat. One is of course clean out the blood. If you buy meat from Jewish market, you're more likely to get clean meat, due to the religion. 2nd part is you must eat aged animal meat without all teh growth hormone. One, it's because chemical injection in their body are bad, two because when animals are force to die, their brain sends out this thing that creates poision in teh body, due to fear. Kind of the reason how some people get cancer.

Fish is probably the best meat, if you cut out the fact that water polution is everywhere now.

Egg white is also very good protien product.