Qigong and diabet melitus

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Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Ventodivino » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:59 pm

Good evening. Sorry for my bad english.

I'm a kendo student and now 2 years are passed since my beginning on white crane soft qigong Practice.

I'm 36 years old and i have diabetes 2

Do you know any advice to help my medical prescription with qigong?

I'm doing agopuncture too.

Thx for the patience
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby joeblast » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:37 pm

honestly diet will provide a lot of results, and faster. paleo or insulin resistant diet, google 'em. eliminate wheat and stuff.

as to the exercises, anything that stretches and compresses the areas, 8 brocades, 6 healing sounds, taiji, bagua, maybe even some shaking medicine practices.

good luck in your efforts /\
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Dvivid » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:04 am

As I understand, Diabetes 2 is considered a diet-based disease, and changing your diet in conjunction with exercising more, can reverse the issue.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/01/28/re ... index.html
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Monsoon » Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:27 pm

Actually, diet is the biggest factor (aside from genetics) in Type II diabetes. I have had to research this area quite thoroughly in 2012 and let me tell you that between scientists in different countries there is very little consensus on either exact definitions of the condition OR treatment/prevention.

I came to the conclusion, from the tons of literature, that the progress of the condition (diabetes type II and metabolic syndrome) can be significantly impaired by a radical change in diet. Mostly this leads to generally better nutrition, but is also very much aided by loss of body fat - fat impinges quite heavily on the function of both the liver (glycogen producer) and the pancreas (insulin producer).

Having said that, diabetes type II comes in 2 distinct flavours: insulin under-production, and insulin cell resistance. The first of these is more problematic as the pancreatic beta cells that produce insulin do not generally get replaced when they cease to function, meaning that (in general) some form of insulin supplement will eventually be necessary. The second variant is the one that responds most favourably to lifestyle change.

In changing diet the biggest factor is radically cutting down on processed carbohydrates (potatoes, rice, white bread) and most sugars - although fructose from fruit is well tolerated as the uptake route is different from the one employed for glucose. Cutting these carbs down to less than 100 grams per day, and increasing the intake of fresh vegetables (particularly leafy types) will lead to initial rapid weight loss. Fresh veg has carbs but they are harder to process and are also present as fibre (which is good for you!). Obviously the diet would have to be monitoredr to avoid creating a deficit between what you eat and what your body actually needs. On average an adult body needs around 1000 calories just to maintain normal body functions. That's BEFORE the energy required for any activity! So it pays to do the sums.

Another factor, which is hotly debated, is that high levels of sugar/processed carbs promotes the loss of chromium from the body. While we only need small amounts of this element, it is apparentyl crucial in reducing cell insulin resistance. For an average male 30-50, who eats reasonable diet of veg, one boiled egg a day will provide all the chromium needed. The supplement form of chromium is not yet recommended.

On top of all this, exercise has a lesser effect on diabetes or weight loss. Exercise, particularly weight bearing and interval training, have been found to increase muscle glucose demand and thus lower cell insulin resistance. As such it is a useful addition to a lifestyle change but is significantly less useful if used by itself (without the dietary changes). Of course, exercise will improve cardio health and stimulate the metabolism. So it shouldn't be avoided. Just remember it is not the miracle approach that some people think it is.

This is all from a Western medical perspective. I am unsure of how it is approached in TCM.

Monsoon

disclaimer: readers should be aware of the need to do their own research in conjuction with their medical practitioners. The information in this post is not offered as a medical opinion nor advice for a treatment protocol.

PS. in case anyone is wondering about this. I was diagnosed with severe diabetes (fasting BG of 288) in June 2012. After refusing medication - to the dismay of my GP - I hit the books and formulated my own plan. 3 months after that I have lost 16 kg, weight is stable, BG levels are in nromal person range, diet is fantastically satisfying and healthy, exercise is undertaken and enjoyed.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby joeblast » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:12 am

that's awesome monsoon - my wife has basically been doing something similar she's always had a rough time losing weight, was working out like mad and getting frustrated at not seeing the results she wanted - tried this insulin resistant paleo sorta diet and BAM - she's been lazy on the workouts and has lost far more weight way faster than any amount of working out ever gave her.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby pete5770 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:34 pm

I have tpye 2. My advice. Take the pills(Januvea, etc.), lose weight, exercise vigously, check your blood sugar daily, take a diabetes course at your local hospital(if they offer it), eat low glycemic index foods, listen to your Doctor. Ignore this and you run terrible risks of all kinds of complications from this disease. Do what works, and to be honest the above things listed work.
Don't get involved in thinking that so called eastern medicine, accupuncture, or Qigong will help you. See a Medical Doctor and DO, repeat DO what he says. You are not dealing with an ache or pain here or there. This can be deadly serious.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby joeblast » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:03 pm

Pete, its beyond me why you bother visiting this forum if you take every opportunity to bash chi gung, tcm, eastern medicine, etc. Every issue has its solution, every context has appropriate treatments. So you're trying to assert that doing things to help motivate fluids will not help in any way, shape, or form? C'mon dude, open your eyes at least a peek.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Monsoon » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:21 pm

Agreed, although Pete raises a very important point. For most people it is absolutely vital that they have a good support structure around them. There is no shame in going to (say) a nutritionist for advice - they are the experts after all.

However, adding qigong or other suitable TCM components is also good, as long as it is not a replacement but a complementary addition. As an example, I do swimming dragon qigong with appropriate breathing techniques. Does it make me healthier? I like to think so! At the very least it gives the internal organs a bit of a massage and that's generally a good thing.

Incidentally, regarding weight loss, it is astonishing how many people get upset when all their hours at the gym do not lead to lost weight in significant amounts. If people consider how input and output are grossly uneven they would understand why. For example, you eat one donut, takes 5 minutes say, but to burn off the calories in that donut by physical activity would require 2 hours of moderate exercise. So people looking to lose weight need to consider both the type of food they are eating in terms of nutrition and the calorific level. It is way, way easier to put calories in. Our bodies are actually very efficient with energy and will use surprisingly little to get us moving compared to the amount we can easily eat.

Monsoon

ps, thanks Joe, my story makes it sound like it was straighforward to implement a plan, but was really hard to do in isolation. If I had to it again I would involve some other health specialists just for support and advice.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby pete5770 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:36 pm

joeblast wrote:Pete, its beyond me why you bother visiting this forum if you take every opportunity to bash chi gung, tcm, eastern medicine, etc. Every issue has its solution, every context has appropriate treatments. So you're trying to assert that doing things to help motivate fluids will not help in any way, shape, or form? C'mon dude, open your eyes at least a peek.


Fine. When or if you become diabetic you may go right ahead and cure it however you see fit.
I'm positive that after you start to experience the many, many complications of this disease like starting to go blind, needing things cut off your body, high blood pressure, possible strokes, and the list goes on, that you WILL be listening to the person you should have been listening to in the first place. A real doctor.

I'm not bashing anything, I'm screaming at a person whom I think will do the wrong things and not lose weight, not listen to his doctor, not watch his diet, not do vigorous exercise. Instead I believe he will go to a health food store, have someone stick needles in him, and do Qigong. All of it wrong. I sincerely hope he proves ME wrong and does the right thing.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby pete5770 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:58 pm

Monsoon wrote:Agreed, although Pete raises a very important point. For most people it is absolutely vital that they have a good support structure around them. There is no shame in going to (say) a nutritionist for advice - they are the experts after all.

However, adding qigong or other suitable TCM components is also good, as long as it is not a replacement but a complementary addition. As an example, I do swimming dragon qigong with appropriate breathing techniques. Does it make me healthier? I like to think so! At the very least it gives the internal organs a bit of a massage and that's generally a good thing.

Incidentally, regarding weight loss, it is astonishing how many people get upset when all their hours at the gym do not lead to lost weight in significant amounts. If people consider how input and output are grossly uneven they would understand why. For example, you eat one donut, takes 5 minutes say, but to burn off the calories in that donut by physical activity would require 2 hours of moderate exercise. So people looking to lose weight need to consider both the type of food they are eating in terms of nutrition and the calorific level. It is way, way easier to put calories in. Our bodies are actually very efficient with energy and will use surprisingly little to get us moving compared to the amount we can easily eat.

Monsoon

ps, thanks Joe, my story makes it sound like it was straighforward to implement a plan, but was really hard to do in isolation. If I had to it again I would involve some other health specialists just for support and advice.


Very well put. Especially the "absolutely vital" part. Once again I'm not saying don't do Tai Chi or Qigong. I'm saying that this alone will not take care of or slow the progress of this disease. You need weight loss, diet controls, vigorous, repeat vigorous exercise(to burn off excess sugar), drugs(if required), daily blood sugar checks, the list goes on and on. Don't do these things and you'll be on the needle before you know it and I've never met anyone who is happy being that way.

I may seem rude or pushy but most people, with this disease(myself included), need screaming at(myself included) to get the point across. With a problem like this you MUST do the right thing.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby sub_human » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:42 pm

For most people, Type II diabetes is One's body telling them they have a sugar addiction. Fore a very few, it is a genetic disposition in which diet alone won't treat.

Secondly, "Medical" treatment is a misnomer, as nothing causes diabetes, the lack of things do. Medicine helps the symptoms and aids you. But no "doctor" will cure your diabetes. Only you can do that.

TCM is the single best way to cure One's self of diabetes. Even "doctors" who have seen the path taken will vouch for this.

Perhaps Pete (& others) dont understand what qigong is, or does. Perhaps they are uneducated (not being derogetory) about what encompasses qigong. Or they have given themselves too much benefit of doubt and think they understand what people are talking about, but (again) truely have no idea and keep regurgitating mysticim as their defense.

It is absurd to dismis 1st-hand testimony & instead interject disbelief out of spite. Go to a library (ie educate urself) and find out how ill-knowledged you are. Education is the cure.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Monsoon » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:21 pm

Mmmm, not quite sure if any of that is aimed at me.

My post was quite clear: change your lifestyle habits. This should include both Western and Eastern healthcare advice. Not one to the exclusion of the other.

I do both. At the start I looked hard at my habits and figured out what needed removing or changing. When that was done I then looked at what could be added for advantage. It's too much, in my opinion, to do everything at once so you have to have a good simple plan.

In Nov 2011 I weighed 110kg (242lbs)... in Nov 2012 I weighed 82kg (180lbs). That was largely achieved by dietary change alone. The exercises and qigong and stuff that I engage in help to maintain good habits plus adding extra things like reduced stress and lower susceptibility to common illnesses (haven't had a cold in over a year!).

There's really not much point in separating individual cause and effect in these cases, as all the practices I do are beneficial.

This is just my personal experience of course, for others your mileage may vary.

Monsoon
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby pete5770 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:45 pm

Dvivid wrote:As I understand, Diabetes 2 is considered a diet-based disease, and changing your diet in conjunction with exercising more, can reverse the issue.



Please, please, listen to "Dvivid''s reasoning. This is 100% true. However don't think for a minute that Qigong is the kind of exercise that is being talked about. We are talking about exercise that helps burn off excess sugar in the blood. We are talking about good old fashioned sweat your *ss off exercise. Not standing around and simply raising and lowering your arms. Things like running, cycling, weight lifting, power walking.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Monsoon » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:40 am

I'm sorry Pete but you are incorrect. Vigorous exercise, particularly the type that builds muscle will help to lower general cell insulin resistance. However, exercise raises the glucose in the blood precisely because it puts demands on the muscles, and causes the liver to release large amounts of glycogen (the body's own storage of glucose).

It is a massive myth that exercise is simply a method of burning away glucose. The problem is that high blood glucose levels are a sign that the glucose is either not being accepted by other cells, or is not linked with sufficient insulin to activate the cell barrier. Either way the glucose stays in the blood instead of being uptaken by the cells that need it. Increasing exercise has a SMALL effect on this, nothing more.

The key to glucose control is to alter the vehicle. This can be easily achieved by removing processed carbohydrates and sugar directly from the diet. These can be replaced with alternative carbohydrate sources such as fresh vegetables that take longer to breakdown and therefore do not flood the system with glucose.

Basically, if you change your diet sufficiently then exercise - beyond your normal recommended range - is not indicated. However, if you do nothing on the diet then no amount of exercise will be of any use.

Having said all that, exercise is still indicated as a good way of maintaining cardiovascular health, as well as maintaining a healthier metabolism.

My point is that people should consider getting the diet part right first, and then slowly build in increasing amounts of exercise. Not the other way around.

Incidentally, when I conducted a full literature search I found that, based on the studies, interval training and weigh bearing exercise are by far the most effective for diabetics. And you don't have to do more than around 10 minutes of these 3 times a week. More is okay if you are on a fitness bender, but for most people is not required.

Monsoon.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:43 am

Monsoon wrote:I'm sorry Pete but you are incorrect. Vigorous exercise, particularly the type that builds muscle will help to lower general cell insulin resistance. However, exercise raises the glucose in the blood precisely because it puts demands on the muscles, and causes the liver to release large amounts of glycogen (the body's own storage of glucose).



I think you may be overlooking the fact that part of the diet idea is that YOU provide the body with the glucose it needs and not let the liver become too involved. This is accomplished by eating small amounts of carbs, and a bit of protein, on a regular schedule(every couple of hours or so). This basically stops the liver from producing insulin, as the liver is not all that good at releasing the right amounts.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Monsoon » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:37 pm

Once again Pete, I mean no disrespect but you are stating incorrect information.

The liver produces NO insulin. This comes from the beta cells (specialised cells) in the pancreas. One of the functions of the liver is to release a highly efficient stored energy compound called glucogen - if you have no stored glucogen you are mostly likely already dead. When we exercise the liver puts out the call for glucogen whether we have eaten any food or not. It is not a choice and we cannot control this in any way. Which is why blood glucose levels rise during exercise although it tends to be also absorbed by the cells more quickly due to energy demand, so the spikes are short-lived.

All our energy needs come from food and oxygen intake. A human body actually does not need any carbohydrates at all, but carbs are the most convenient and easiest way of getting energy.

So you see, I have not overlooked anything at all. Our diet provides us with fuel, but you have to understand how the body works in order understand how the food is used. However, simply by reducing COMPLEX CARB and GLUCOSE intake will lead to a measure of blood control far beyond anything that can be achieved by exercise, and it requires nothing more than a willingness to change the dietary intake.

Personally I only do random BG tests, as I have every confidence in my diet. In fact, 2 days ago I did a random test at midday and had a reading of 4.6 (82.8 on the old US scale). Considering the 'normal' range for a non-diabetic adult is stated to be between 4 and 6 (72 and 108) I think my levels are damn well controlled! And to consider, when I was diagnosed my fasting BG level was 16 (288)!!

On a secondary note, regarding qigong, particularly with reference to breathing practices, our skeletal muscles are also demanding of the energy that is derived from oxygen intake. Qigong breathing exercises can lead to deeper and fuller and longer breaths, thus allowing a significantly greater amount of oxygen absorption by the lungs. This allows us to metabolise glucose far more efficiently. If there is less oxygen then the body heads toward anaerobic muscle activity where the metabolism of glucose is severely uneconomic and leads to lactic acidosis. As an example, in the presence of of oxygen, one unit of glucogen gives a roughly 33% return of energy, whereas in the absence of oxygen the return is only around 3%. That is a massive difference.

From a purely scientific perspective this is proof enough that qigong breathing exercises are beneficial to health. So, even if you do not believe in some of the (frankly) wild claims of qigong practitioners you should at least be open-minded enough to realise that there are some aspects that are true. Added to this is the meditative quality of qigong that can substantially reduce stress levels - which are also contra-indicated in diabetics.

Pete, you are doing yourself a disservice by labelling ALL qigong as quackery, when many aspects can and are useful and beneficial.

Monsoon
Last edited by Monsoon on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby yeniseri » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:56 pm

1. Diet is a priority but a minefield. Balance is the key.
2. Exercise. Tricky. When the diet phase is in place, exercise whould start in small amounts so to prepare the body for more work later. Too vigorous exercise is not efficient since there is a 'break even' intersection where vigourous exercise will be deleterious.
Low to medium intensity allows for the muscle to utilize it glycogen stores and start a process that breaks down FFA (free fatty acids) and as this get better with activity, then switch to medium intensity.

Before beginning any exercise programme, it is best to contact the family doctor so as to do the pre-requisite tests to see if one is fit for that activity!
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Monsoon » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:17 pm

Agreed, particularly with respect to sedentary people taking up exercise. It needs to be approached with caution and monitored by a professional.

It should be noted that glycogen that is already stored in skeletal muscle tissue has no direct impact on blood glucose levels, but that once depleted (and there really isn't much - 1-3% of muscle mass) the liver is called on for glucogen release. This does have an impact on BG.

Most diabetics, and in fact most people, do not need to go beyond moderate activity. It should also be noted that the human body is designed for survival not satisfaction. As such it works best when on the edge of hunger rather than when it is satiated.

Diet can be problematic but a good start would be to remove all bread (all types), all rice, all potatoes, and all sweet foods or refined sugars. As you get used to the new diet you can add small amounts back in according to your control levels. Increasing meat intake is only a problem if no exercise is done. Recently revised studies have shown no real link between fats and heart disease.

It pays to keep up with the research, but who among us has the time to read everything? :D

Monsoon
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby pete5770 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:18 pm

Monsoon wrote:Once again Pete, I mean no disrespect but you are stating incorrect information.

The liver produces NO insulin. This comes from the beta cells (specialised cells) in the pancreas. One of the functions of the liver is to release a highly efficient stored energy compound called glucogen ....


Personally I only do random BG tests, as I have every confidence in my diet. In fact, 2 days ago I did a random test at midday and had a reading of 4.6 (82.8 on the old US scale). Considering the 'normal' range for a non-diabetic adult is stated to be between 4 and 6 (72 and 108) I think my levels are damn well controlled! And to consider, when I was diagnosed my fasting BG level was 16 (288)!!

Monsoon


I agree with the liver NOT producing insulin. I think I had the proverbial brain f*rt on that one.
It's my understanding that you don't want the liver to be your glucogen supplier as it can be unreliable in the amounts it puts out. Better to use food as the supply so the liver doesn't need to be relied upon. Better control of the amounts that way. Anyway that's how I understand it.
I do one test a day consisting of a check just before I eat and another check two hours later. Then compare the difference between the two.
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Re: Qigong and diabet melitus

Postby Monsoon » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:09 pm

Actually I am a bit guilty of over simplifying and thus misinforming myself!

The liver releases a hormone called glucogon, which stimulates the release of glucose stores into the blood. The liver does its job perfectly, it's just that for diabetics we cannot cope with this response as well as we should. Not the liver's fault!

Either way, diet is the critical factor, not exercise. Although exercise is complimentary and should be done.

The key message is: Get that diet sorted out!

Do we concur?
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