Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby sengtsan » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:37 pm

pete5770 wrote: "I suggest..." I am always open to possibilities.

..another bias..." I have no problem with someone believing in Bigfoot. However, if you want me to believe, then show me. No one has shown me. It's been all claims.


Pete,

These two are contradictory.

If you are open to possibilities, then you can't have any bias against qigong. Having a bias is not being neutral and impartial. It is neither using critical thinking.

Look at what your bias against qigong is leading you to do:
someone says "I have deep mental fatigue" you say he is depressed, he must take anti-depressants
then he says " I have seen MDs" you say he is a liar, a troll
and he says " they checked everything" you say he is a liar, a troll

And you say that without any good reason or proof that can support your attitude.

This is the minimal cost of your bias. I find it quite high. Would you mind thinking about it? :)


Meanwhile, let's turn it around: show us that your view is legit. Show us that qigong doesn't work and explain why A Randomized Trial of Tai Chi has been proven effective against fibromyalgia (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0912611) ...explain it in another thread :lol:

Time for me to quit from the PC. I am not sure I will have the time to sustain long discussions with you in the next days, but others will probably gracefully replace me.

Take good care of you Pete
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby sengtsan » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:04 pm

Pete, I have posted two replies to your last posts, one p2 and one p3. Please read the two :)
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby pete5770 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:31 pm

sengtsan wrote:
pete5770 wrote: "I suggest..." I am always open to possibilities.

..another bias..." I have no problem with someone believing in Bigfoot. However, if you want me to believe, then show me. No one has shown me. It's been all claims.


These two are contradictory.

If you are open to possibilities, then you can't have any bias against qigong. Having a bias is not being neutral and impartial. It is neither using critical thinking.

"I have deep mental fatigue" you say he is depressed, he must take anti-depressants
then he says " I have seen MDs" you say he is a liar, a troll
and he says " they checked everything" you say he is a liar, a troll

This is the minimal cost of your bias. I find it quite high. Would you mind thinking about it? :)


Meanwhile, let's turn it around: show us that your view is legit. Show us that qigong doesn't work.



I believe I said I was "open" to "possibilities". Meaning that I could be swayed with evidence to the contrary. That doesn't sound like bias to me. You, on the other hand, seem extremely biased
in your somewhat "Qigong is all that AND more" retoric. Please explain to me why I have to believe you. I'm not asking you to believe me. Am I? I'm simply telling you what I believe.

As for the "liar" part those are your words, not mine.

The "troll" part was a question.

Sorry that YOU find the cost of my so called bias so high. Would I mind thinking about it? I don't have much interest in spending time thinking and pondering things I really don't believe in. I'm pretty sure that if I believed in Bigfoot and was trying to convince you of it that you wouldn't spend a whole lot of time looking into it unless it interested you. So, no I'll not spend time looking into whatever you say is true simply because you say it.

I'm sorry to say that you or I or anyone can't prove something does not exist. You must prove that it does exist. Things only exist when someone proves they do.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby Josh Young » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:04 pm

pete5770 wrote: I believe I said I was "open" to "possibilities". Meaning that I could be swayed with evidence to the contrary.


I'd like to point out that in the past on this board you have written that even if presented with evidence of qigong being effective you would likely not regard it as real. You have admitted your mind is closed to possibilities/evidence before and have played the role of anti-qigong/anti-tai chi troll every chance you get and then some.

I think everyone knows how you feel about qigong, why keep denouncing it and meditation at a forum pertaining to it? It is beating a dead horse.

Sorry for being so off topic, but I wanted to address the present conversation.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby sengtsan » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:52 am

pete5770 wrote: I believe I said I was "open" to "possibilities". Meaning that I could be swayed with evidence to the contrary. That doesn't sound like bias to me. You, on the other hand, seem extremely biased
in your somewhat "Qigong is all that AND more" retoric. Please explain to me why I have to believe you. I'm not asking you to believe me. Am I? I'm simply telling you what I believe.

As for the "liar" part those are your words, not mine.

The "troll" part was a question.

Sorry that YOU find the cost of my so called bias so high. Would I mind thinking about it? I don't have much interest in spending time thinking and pondering things I really don't believe in. I'm pretty sure that if I believed in Bigfoot and was trying to convince you of it that you wouldn't spend a whole lot of time looking into it unless it interested you. So, no I'll not spend time looking into whatever you say is true simply because you say it.

I'm sorry to say that you or I or anyone can't prove something does not exist. You must prove that it does exist. Things only exist when someone proves they do.


Pete,

I never asked you to believe ME. I am no one to do that. I asked you to ponder over your attitude.

The topic is not Bigfoot. It is the fact, backed up by science, that body-mind therapies can have an impact on health.

I suggested you look at the links I gave you, which provide scientific evidences (not my evidences) about Meditation and Tai chi. Looks like you didn't and that you preferred staying with your bias, as Josh pointed it out. Thanks to him because I had forgotten that.

It is all the more pitiful from you that it is the same kind (same methods, US scientists etc..) of scientific studies that show that vigourous physical exercise benefits health. You accept the latter but not the former, how strange, isn't it?

This is exactly what a bias is: choosing between facts of the same nature, only the ones that serve our interest and discarding the other ones.

Just in case it was only out of distraction that you missed them:

the one about tai chi and fibromyalgia : http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0912611#t=article

the one about mindfulness meditation:
http://www.umassmed.edu/Content.aspx?id=42426

Take care
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby Brian » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:54 am

shinobi wrote:Hello.

For years I suffer from deep chronic mental fatigue.
Two months ago I started doing 8 section brocade + 15 minutes of zhan-zhuang EVERY morning AND evening. I DONT FEEL ANY IMPROVEMENTS. All I feel is that
I'm just a little bit more relaxed. But thats not what I need. I need to be mentally active and focused.
Instead I feel like a walking zombie (as I was before just more relaxed) I have no medical problems, checked everything.

Maybe the routine I choosed is not appropriate for my problem. Maybe I need something more intense plus maybe I also need internal elixir (but I am just a newbie).
I thought of changing my routine to the following:

Morning:
Small circulation meditation
Full Yi Jin Jing

Evening:
Some intense art (hung gar OR xing yi OR white crane ...etc)

This chronic fatigue become unbearable. Please advice me how to build my daily routine.
Thank you.


Shinobi...since this thread has deteriorated to point of argument between other posters..I think your best possible path now is to read over all the posts so far, extract all the POSITIVE advice in relation to QiGong/Taiji/Exercise/Diet, DO NOT engage in anymore discussion but take the information away and give the suggestions a try (irrespective of other posters' belief/disbelief in these techniques)...THEN, after a few months, report back to us on what impact it has had (if any) on your Fatigue Syndrome.

What do you think??
Taiji, QiGong and Meditation
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby shinobi » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:30 am

Brian wrote:Shinobi...since this thread has deteriorated to point of argument between other posters..I think your best possible path now is to read over all the posts so far, extract all the POSITIVE advice in relation to QiGong/Taiji/Exercise/Diet, DO NOT engage in anymore discussion but take the information away and give the suggestions a try (irrespective of other posters' belief/disbelief in these techniques)...THEN, after a few months, report back to us on what impact it has had (if any) on your Fatigue Syndrome.

What do you think??


Hello Brian.

That is exactly what I am doing :D
Thanks to Dvivid, I started walking every morning .
Thanks to Sengtsan, I have completely changed my Zhan-Zhuang regimen.
Wpgtaiji adviced me to recheck my food habbits/allergies, and although I eat very healthy , I still found his advice wise and decided to go to allergy clinic.
I feel that not only I joined YMAA community. My mom, who is very arthritic, is now on Baduanjin regimen. My wife, who is a PHD in chemistry student, is also now on Baduanjin+Zhan Zhuang regimen (her back pain almost disapeared).

I want to thank you all guys for your time and valuable information. I know that I am on the right path and in the right community :wink:

See you soon !
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby Inga » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:36 am

Shinobi

I am pleased to read you have found help here from the YMAA Community. What began as a request for assistance from you turned into a larger debate over the health benefits of qigong practice. People are welcome to their opinions, and expressing them, trying to see other points of view and sharing experiences and knowledge is why this forum was created. These are ancient practices, we are not the first (nor the last) to contemplate their use and benefit.

I would request that posters please direct the rest of this thread to your health questions. For a continuing conversation about the nature of qigong I would suggest starting a new thread for anyone who wishes to continue.

Thank you.

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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby sengtsan » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:00 pm

shinobi wrote:
Hello Brian.

That is exactly what I am doing :D
Thanks to Dvivid, I started walking every morning .
Thanks to Sengtsan, I have completely changed my Zhan-Zhuang regimen.
Wpgtaiji adviced me to recheck my food habbits/allergies, and although I eat very healthy , I still found his advice wise and decided to go to allergy clinic.
I feel that not only I joined YMAA community. My mom, who is very arthritic, is now on Baduanjin regimen. My wife, who is a PHD in chemistry student, is also now on Baduanjin+Zhan Zhuang regimen (her back pain almost disapeared).

I want to thank you all guys for your time and valuable information. I know that I am on the right path and in the right community :wink:

See you soon !


Thanks for this Shinobi.
I am responsible for the heated discussion that took place in your thread.
I am sorry for that.
I wish you the best and look forward hearing about the benefits you and your family receive from your practice.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby Dvivid » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:03 pm

Chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia are closely related. Often a person diagnosed with one, also presents the other.

I wanted to also point out that the Fibromyalgia study linked above was designed by YMAA author Ramel Rones, who has been a disciple of Dr. Yang since the 1980s. The material he used for the study is the same he presented in his book/DVD Sunset Tai Chi (co-written by me). This article was the first time the subject of Tai Chi has been published in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine.

So...yay! Enjoy your practice. It only works when you stick with it!
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby Greg Jah » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:57 pm

Hi Shinobi,

Wondering how things were going for you. Have your symptoms gotten any better?

An acquaintance of mine has Chronic Fatigue, and it is truly debilitating. I admire your spirit.

This acquaintance told me that her symptoms got better when she cut wheat out of her diet. Have you experimented with any dietary changes? And how is your Chi Gong practice going?

Best,

Greg
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby PeterL » Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:40 am

Hello friends,

I want to share my own experience with Chronic Fatique and how I was able to get rid of it.

First a little bit about me, my background. I'm 38 years old, software-engineer, in my free time deep into holistic healing methods, especially homeopathy. Now I've studied homeopathy for more than 18 years, my half life and I know it helps as also acupuncture helps.

I was used to practice QiGong for few years in the past, then for some reason I stopped ... and this was definitely a bad idea.

After this time I start to do weights and this improved my health for a time. Unfortunately I got the "burn-out-syndrom" which is the same a chronic fatigue (just a new word in the vocabulary). I tried everything except TCM. A lot of homeopathic remedies, bachflowers and so on.

Then it occurred to me: something is wrong with my attitude. By observing my colleagues, friends and so on, I noticed that none of them has "private projects" like myself. It's like they work and then they go home and just relax, spend time with family or watch a football game. But I was working 100%, lifting weight 100%, study homeopathy 100%, programming private projects 100% and still got the strange feeling that I was never giving my best.

Now this is a common problem for people with a "burn-out" you know! A typical pattern of self-destruction by workaholism. Even relaxing becomes a obsession in doing this also 100% ... so how could one finally broke the ban?

I read some interesting articles in a homeopathic magazine (Spectrum of homoeopathy) which covered a lot of topics on the burn-out syndrom and there I read that persons inclined to burn-out have a root cause in their childhood. For example they just don't feel loved, so they try their very best in everything in order to gather attention.

When I realized that I was burning my candle on both sites I decided to stop doing private projects and cut the weight lifting replacing it with some walks in the wood.

For anyone reading this, here a very important note:
If you make changes to your lifestyle, don't expect immediate results. Don't revert the changes after a few days. It needs MONTHS for recovering from a burn-out or chronic fatigue.

In the TCM burn-out is known as kidney-Yin-deficiency, right? Also other patterns occurs like liver-fire or heart-yin-deficiency ... resulting in insomnia or even bad dreams. Past emotional traumas can be a trigger for this wrong path for the Qi.

So one tries to relax, but this reveals to be rather difficult.
Therefore my advice, which worked very good for me:
For at least two weeks cut everything off ... TV, computer, internet, social networks, cell phone. All this information-overflow is bad for your brain and you need to calm down. This applies to sugar, chocolate, alcohol and so on.
Then add step by step one of this activities in the list:
- take a walk daily in the wood / beach or somewhere in nature for at least 30 min
- go swimming for 30 to 45 min
- moving QiGong 10 to 20 min
- cook your meals for yourself (slow food), for example tonic soup, chicken soup etc
- no mental work, but read in a relaxed manner a book for some minutes daily
- build something with wood, help your neighbor, work with your muscles (helps grounding)

This steps will introduce a change inside you and permits you to understand what exactly is going wrong inside yourself. Wrong motivation can lead to apathy or chronic fatigue, both extremes are based on the same root cause and both shows up in the same person at different times (compensation and decompensation).

Only after a few weeks you can begin to work on inner qi work. I regard breathing techniques like "sung-breathing" as an inner work, because there is no outer movement like the eight brokades. There are a lot of layers to be dissolved and patients is required. Each layer contains emotional junk which one becomes conscious during this work. It's like you suddenly loose your inner calm and focus and you enter a inner dispute with a virtual person, but this is indeed a good sign if you then are aware that this is just another layer and you "breath your way through it" and dissolve it.

Also one thing I have to note: By dissolving a layer it requires time for the body to get rid of waste products which was bound to the emotional and energetic junk. Therefore never push to hard. It's best to use our intention (yi) as smooth as necessary.
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Re: Chronic Fatigue - What to do ???

Postby PeterL » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:06 am

wpgtaiji:
Three strikes mate! well, this is a partial strike... Your idea as to qigong is flawed. They are ALL about balancing qi! are there some that increase qi? sure. But not to more than you are supposed to have. Acupuncture allows qi to enter the body much easier via the needle. The needle breaks the resistance of the skin.


wpgtaiji you are right. The same applies to our brain. A urban myth claims that Einstein once said that we are using only 10% of our brain (some even say only 0,0001% hahaha :D ). This is not true. We use 100%. But why are some people so intelligent and others not? Because most people use their brain for useless things or they think too much about their worries and so on. By balancing our qi we would be surprised how much qi actually flows through us. It may feel as if we has accumulated more than average humans. In reality we have only dissolved blockages on different levels.

Josh Young:
I know one person who had an issue with something like this and went to over 30 doctors in 5 years and did not get the right diagnosis, he then took his own blood sample and put it under a microscope and found blood parasites (lime disease and a related disease) and took photographs of the parasites in his blood and took the pictures to his doctor, a doctor who had previously said he did not have lime disease, the doctor then did finally diagnose him properly and got him on a treatment program and he has since improved. My point is that it can be very easy for doctors to miss the truth, they are only human. It has nothing to do with the system of medicine they practice.


If parasites would be the root cause of a burn out syndrome, then there are more symptoms than only fatigue. For example itching of the anus and a huge desire for sweets. Changing your eating habits could be a solution, because parasites only live in an environment which fits for them. For example if you eat carrots, garlic, onion and more fresh vegetables then you could stabilize a flora which hinders parasites to flourish.

(By the way interesting that this person did the diagnosis by himself.)

In my experience a burn out is caused by the own attitude towards work. For example if you love your work more than anything else, then you have a huge problem.

Or maybe you distract yourself with social networks during this 8 to 9 hours and this leads to blockages in the small intestine meridian. On long term it reduces the qi in the liver meridian. The solution would be to cut off all unnecessary informations inputs.

Frustration leads to stagnation in the liver meridian and then again to a lower flow in the heart meridian (less joy, lower energy).

Also you should consider to work less. The burn out is a syndrome that tells you to do less, not to do more. By practicing Qi Gong a person should be balanced again and not become a super hero who can work 12 hours without getting tired.

Regarding other therapies I prefer here homeopathy in combination with flower essences. But your need help from someone who is able to recognize the deeper patterns.
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