Qi Gong, TJQ, zazen.

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Qi Gong, TJQ, zazen.

Postby caesar » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:45 am

Hi,

might sound a bit weird and abstract question but this was the most obvious place for me to ask this...

If someone is enjoying the meditative path of Qi Gong and Taijiquan, how will the results differ from pure zen-meditation, where one is sitting on floor with legs crossed and simply counting the breaths?
caesar
 

Re: Qi Gong, TJQ, zazen.

Postby yeniseri » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:02 pm

caesar wrote:If someone is enjoying the meditative path of Qi Gong and Taijiquan, how will the results differ from pure zen-meditation, where one is sitting on floor with legs crossed and simply counting the breaths?


It may depend on how one was taught or how one interpreted that instruction!

Personally, qigong and taijiquan is not meditation, though Ihave heard it described as such, though it can help with core relaxation. I am not sure what pure zen meditation is but sitting, in its absolute, is close to what meditation is about but again meditation, in absolute, should be whatever you are doing, you are calm and attentive to that presence!
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Re: Qi Gong, TJQ, zazen.

Postby caesar » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:27 pm

Ok...the way I see it...an important part of zazen, is to notice how the mind tries to distract the practitioner from the essential (in zazen: feeling the body and breathing, everything which is "NOW".)

Now...I'm no expert but for me when I'm doing TJQ or for example Zhang Zhuang...I must work on the same matter. Then again, some advice I've heard on ZZ is to help feeling relaxed, by visualization. Now visualization is for my understanding not used in zazen, because it would also mean that you are "working" with your mind, creating things, in oppose to learn how to let the mind rest.

But in zazen, the practitioner also has to count the breaths, and counting is actually done by using the mind. So as far as I understand, it's a practice to learn to simultaneously let the mind be at rest, but also have the mind and body (breathing) work together, without having to concentrate too much on the mind, to learn to focus on the essential, with the help of mind. Now isn't this pretty close to what is taught in tai chi or am I totally lost?

Now about zhang zhuang...I've also read that visualization with the help of mind, is often only used as long as it is necessary for relaxing the body and being able to do natural breathing...and once achieved this, one might only stand (and notice the thoughts, but not grabbing them), and some also want to count the breaths...just as in zazen.

I have also been taught, that sometimes it's good to practise TJQ so that you also count every move...to develop better concentration.

Then again...when I was doing zen-meditation...I was told that actually the typical sitting legs crossed -posture is actually only meant to help the body stay aware and make the practise of meditation easier...that one can actually practise zazen standing, or sitting on a chair...or even lying on the floor...but it is only more difficult.

you said

meditation, in absolute, should be whatever you are doing, you are calm and attentive to that presence!


I agree! The reason I practice meditation, is to learn to "grab" it with me whenever I don't meditate in a posture...having a calm mind. I've noticed that both...zazen and practicing taichichuan have had a same kind of effect on me..

Now with this...if I sit in my zazen (which I rarely do nowadays), and in the position, actually lift my hands to a zhang zhuang position...and keep counting me breaths...what's the difference anymore? I can also stand up and be in a "normal" ZZ posture and keep counting...and practising zazen and ZZ the same time...stillness and letting the breathing happen by itself is for my understanding a mutual concept, in zazen, zhang zhuang and taijiquan.

Thoughts? :)
caesar
 

Re: Qi Gong, TJQ, zazen.

Postby yeniseri » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:46 pm

Far from being an expert, the better strategy is just to assume the sitting posture and be aware 'anxiety" "stress" abounds and relax as best as possible and sit for 30 minutes or so. Start small. I have heard the element of counting breaths is important but my only concern is that I am as relaxed and in that process become of depth of breathing in chest vs abdomen. I try to breathe from abdominal area. I tend to follow vipassana concepts as opposed those espoused by Japanese Or Korean suggestin of counting. I tend to look at duration than the count!

ma fren stated
I have also been taught, that sometimes it's good to practise TJQ so that you also count every move...to develop better concentration.
but I am ignorant of that instruction but if it works according to your process, then you are the captain of the ship.
If anything, I tend to count in zhanzhuang more thatn I would in sitting methods but that is the only process that I am aware of!
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Re: Qi Gong, TJQ, zazen.

Postby Brian » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:30 am

caesar wrote:Hi,

might sound a bit weird and abstract question but this was the most obvious place for me to ask this...

If someone is enjoying the meditative path of Qi Gong and Taijiquan, how will the results differ from pure zen-meditation, where one is sitting on floor with legs crossed and simply counting the breaths?


Taiji and QiGong can be 'meditative' in nature, but are not meditations in their own right (Taiji is a martial art, QiGong is for cultivating Qi and strengthening the body). There are many thngs we can attribute this meditative nature to, such as painting, gardening, prayer...it all depends on the state of mind you apply to the process.
Zen Buddhist meditations are designed to bring the Mind to a state of Enlightenment (either suddenly or slowly) and this Enlightenment is the ultimate 'end result' for Zen. The use of 'Koans' or counting the breath are techniques within the system.

I do not think you can equate Taiji/QiGong and how the Mind is while practicing them, to the 'goal driven' (ie Enlightenment) techniques of Zen sitting meditation. To do the Taiji Form and try to count the moves, for example, would be to ignore the use of Intention (Yi) and the purpose of the moves within the Form.
During QiGong (standing), the Mind should be loose, quiet, and allow thoughts to enter and leave as they will....the trick is not to deal with any 'issues' while standing, but to simply acknowledge them, and allow them to move on. Just be 'Mindfull' of your standing...just 'Be'.

So, enjoy the 'meditative Path' that you experience during Taiji and QiGong and don't worry or stress about comparisons with other systems.
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Re: Qi Gong, TJQ, zazen.

Postby Dvivid » Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:58 am

Qigong and Tai Chi can be a workout as Yenisei describes, or it can be your meditation.

It depends upon your intention.

For any practice to become a meditation, I think everyone goes through the Five Regulatings, as its called in Qigong.

FIVE REGULATINGS:
body, breath, mind, qi, and spirit.

The goal is to forget about the concepts of your practice entirely, stop counting breaths, and be in the moment. The brain waves settle down into deep relaxation of alpha waves and you are 'in the zone'. The heart rates slows, blood pressure goes down, and your sympathetic nervous system relaxes. Relaxation promotes healing, an improved immune response, and gives you the patience to sit or move quietly.

(I recommend Soft White Crane Qigong.)

Everyone goes through the same stages of progress in their qigong training. Some have natural ability in certain areas, so they will move through a stage more quickly than another person; for instance, someone with a background in dance or yoga may already have skills for 'connecting' to their body, and making minute adjustments, where someone who hasn't done any mind/body exercise may literally have difficulty feeling their body, and turning their attention inward inside the body.

Therefore, the first stage of 'regulating the body' is different for everyone. And of course, it takes a long time of practicing often to reach a stage where the body is always in healthy alignment, and in a correct and relaxed position. The newer you are to practice, and the less mind/body experience you already have, the longer your qigong practice should be.

The same is true of the other stages of regulating: breath, mind, qi, and spirit. Practice, practice, practice.
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