Qi-Free Thread

Discuss Qigong, its ideas, theories and practice. Please stay on topic.

Moderators: nyang, Dvivid, Inga

Qi-Free Thread

Postby Dvivid » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:12 pm

Experiment for the Qi-denouncers lurking in the YMAA forum:

Without using the word Qi at all in this thread, lets discuss human health as it pertains to the circulation of blood and energy throughout the body (even though this is a QiGong forum).

I'll start!

Ion channels regulate the flow of ions across the membrane in all human cells. An ion is a molecule with an uneven number of protons and electrons, thereby giving it a positive or negative charge.

"While some channels permit the passage of ions based solely on charge, the archetypal channel pore is just one or two atoms wide at its narrowest point. It conducts a specific species of ion, such as sodium or potassium, and conveys them through the membrane single file--nearly as quickly as the ions move through free fluid. In some ion channels, passage through the pore is governed by a "gate," which may be opened or closed by chemical or electrical signals, temperature, or mechanical force, depending on the variety of channel."

"Voltage-activated" channels underlie the nerve impulses and "transmitter-activated" channels mediate conduction across the synapses. Therefore these channels are a prominent component of the nervous system. There are MANY different types of ion channel throughout the body.

Our blood circulation also brings various ions throughout the body, providing energy to every living cell.

Each of the 100 trillion cells that the human body is constructed of has an individual life span - living for hours, or days, months. Eventually, these cells die, and they need to be discarded from the body to make space for the growth of new cells. 60 or 70% of the cell replacement process takes place through breathing. 10 or 20% takes place through sweating. So if you don't breathe deeply and break a sweat regularly, the cell replacement process is reduced and stagnant. This results in impaired immune response and feelings of sluggishness and weakness.

There is a growing understanding in modern Western medical science of the link between the immune system and nervous systems, otherwise known as the neuroimmune system. This research is often referred to in the popular media as mind/body science. It has become clear that there is extensive bi-directional communication between the brain/nervous system and the immune system. The health of one affects the other.

The field of neuroimmunology has started to discover how and why people get sick due their thinking. Sufferers of psychosomatic illness experience pain, nausea, or other physically felt symptoms but with no physical cause that can be diagnosed. The keyword in this is "feeling". They feel symptoms, though no physical cause is readily apparent. Feeling is the language between body and mind.

It will be interesting to see how this important field of medicine develops.
...
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Postby Josh Young » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:28 pm

Great thread!

Na, K and Ca are all ions used in signal pathways. They do not supply power in any sense to the body, but act as signal methods connecting the neurons of the brain to the enzymatic control systems.

Understanding the nature of the enzyme is key to understanding this process. No increase in voltage increases enzymatic power, or total power. No increase of voltage or ions is associated with increased power levels.

This is because the main power source for our bodies is ATP, not the synaptic charges that are used to communicate.

But if we go to the muscles then we have muscle activators, there are three main types. Glycolytic, and oxidative and an intermediate combination of the two. In terms of activation this entails two types of activators, slow twitch and fast twitch, and most muscle sets can recruit either. However one is based on glucose or blood sugar and the other is based on oxidation. The glucose systems are employed in most people only for muscles requiring occasional use, while the slow twitch is used for systems that require constant power, like the muscles of the spine that work most of the day to support a person.

By doing **gong one can engage the muscles sets used to glycolytic for extended periods of time and thus cause recruitment of slow twitch activators for these same systems. This means that instead of muscular power being linked to glucose metabolism it become linked to breath itself and oxidation. The slow twitch are only slower on the order of milliseconds, they are lb for lb much stronger and more efficient, but entail different metabolic waste products.

By training the body to employ slow twitch activators for the muscles, something that can only be done with holding postures or very slow movement, then the body can be made stronger. However because these systems depend more on breath and oxygen, they require relaxation to prevent metabolic wastes from building up in specific regions and causing problems. So to make the process efficient the body must train to ensure that the muscles recruit the proper activators and also ensure that the circulation works well. However the increase in power and control of the muscle sets has nothing to do with an increase of ionic energy from synaptic channels, but is directly related to ATP production.

Increasing the electrical synaptic signal to a muscle does not increase contractile power or rate of contraction. It can increase power through activating more receptors, but this is not the same as electrical supply to a device where the signal provides the power source. In people increasing the signal does not increase the power source. To increase the ATP, however can increase power, but no increase of ATP can be had by increasing the signal in the nerves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycolysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidative_phosphorylation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid_cycle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_twitch_muscles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_contraction

The muscle section does not note that muscle types can be trained and altered by the body as needed. (neovascularization)
Nor does it mention that when you age the glucose muscle shrinks and wastes away, but the slow twitch remains and is easier to maintain but much slower to build.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Postby Josh Young » Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:29 pm

I'd have provided book references, not wiki, but I don't think the biology books I have are as accessible as wiki. I have been through all the same courses that pre-med college students take.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Qi-Free Thread

Postby pizwatc » Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:27 am

Thank you for your informed comments. The thread so far addresses health (immune system) and martial (muscle) aspects of the body. It is my understanding that traditional views also include a spiritual (brain) aspect. I would be interested in your thoughts and further information concerning this third aspect, including your criticism of my rudimentary breakdown into health, martial, and spitiual aspects. Thanks again.
pizwatc
Forum Regular
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:45 pm
Location: Denver, Colorado USA

Postby Josh Young » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:26 am

I know how much of a fool I am.
I know that what I know is only what I believe, it is relative and subject to change.

For this reason, it cannot be I that is informed, nor my responses.
I am only an ignorant soul on the journey of a lifetime.

I will however do my best to respond.
I would be interested in your thoughts and further information concerning this third aspect, including your criticism of my rudimentary breakdown into health, martial, and spiritual aspects.
Because of the nature of the reply I must make, I choose to do so in a different area of this forum:
http://www.ymaa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21166#21166
Thanks!
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Postby yeniseri » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:09 pm

Excellent points!
The underlying processees never change but the effect(s) depends on the type of activity and whether it influences slow twitch or fast twitch activity or combination. Industrialized modern society is already at a disadvantage based on sedentary lifestyle which predisposes many to chronic conditions and the lessened nutritive value of foods.

My own personal effort is trying to show how taijiquan and qigong can help without resorting to witchcraft, sorcery, mysticism, magic, new age feelgoodism, and such so at times it is daunting.

A teacher once mentioned to me that Daoist/Buddhist yangshenggong instruction of the past relied on astronomy (not as in planets, their location, or activity) but on effects they have on intuition, energetics and mental acuity. I am totally ignorant (no formal instruction or teaching) of this but one strategy I have tried and it works.

Relax. do qigong as usual. If even you do not practice frequently make sure you assiduously do it 3 days before and after a full moon. Do shougong (ending routine) Do not pay attention to a specific time but make sure the time is the same. Do not go to bed right away. take a short walk. Never hurry the practice routine. Everything in the dream is as such and differentiate the real from the false.

for all who may have interest. The 0.1Hz frequency of light exercise, of which taijiquan, qigong, and similarly done routines has been show to be an objective part of benefit.
yeniseri
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:18 pm
Location: USA

Postby Dvivid » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:12 am

The 0.1Hz frequency of light exercise


?? Tell more please.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Postby yeniseri » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:09 am

Dvivid wrote:
The 0.1Hz frequency of light exercise


?? Tell more please.


Basically slow, even continuous movements (as with taijiquan, qigong, yoga-Sun salutation) with breaths approximating 6-9 a minute in conjunction with an 'active' lifestyle promotes homeostasis and integrates the electrical circuits of the body. One may call it heart-mind synthesis (they are on the same page as in synchronication).
yeniseri
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:18 pm
Location: USA

Postby Dvivid » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:09 pm

Electrical circuits?

Is there somewhere we can read more about this?
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Postby yeniseri » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:23 pm

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/qi ... e/1177?l=1

You can also check out the "heart math" site where, when we have heart and mind working together, one achieves synchronicity. No contention meaning, according to the "xin" concept they are working towards the same goals. Within this synchronicity come the electronic circuits, where this union can be measured with electrical instrumentation meaning there is innervation to the meridians in conjunction with a "healthy active lifestyle".
yeniseri
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:18 pm
Location: USA

Postby joeblast » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:31 pm

constructively amplifying waves
joeblast
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:20 pm
Location: CT

Postby Dvivid » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:00 am

So, this thread ground to a halt as expected - over a month of no posts.

When discussing the body's energy from any perspective, mind, body, spirit, you run into the same language-roadblock.

My point with this ridiculous "qi-free" discussion was to make exactly this point.

There is no correct answer.

If you look at the body's energy from one perspective with a partiular data set, you'll get one answer in a particular vocabulary, and if you look from another perspective, you'll get another.

A very long time ago, the Chinese started to discuss this concept of the body's energy, relating it to taiji yin/yang theory and emphasizing the interrelation of the human body, the earth, and the universe above.

When you investigate this question from a modern Western medical perspective, you will find that the basic currency within the body is called ATP - a unit of energy. Glucose and air.

The exact thing as QI. Air + Rice (glucose) aka food.

This was meant to simply be an exercise in the futility of attempting to prove one vocabulary of man-made language to be superior over another.

The question still remains: what is the energy within the human body?
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
Dvivid
Forum God
 
Posts: 1736
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:48 am
Location: Boston, MA

Postby yeniseri » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:45 am

Dvivid wrote:So, this thread ground to a halt as expected - over a month of no posts.
My point with this ridiculous "qi-free" discussion was to make exactly this point.

There is no correct answer.
When you investigate this question from a modern Western medical perspective, you will find that the basic currency within the body is called ATP - a unit of energy. Glucose and air.
The exact thing as QI. Air + Rice (glucose) aka food.
The question still remains: what is the energy within the human body?


Personally, I do not need to know what the energy is within the body.
It is as it is. I try to do things to make it more efficient and when asked, as a teacher I refer to each person individual consciousness as to how they perceive it. A teacher (at least, I) cannot answer that for the student. Though I do not like the modern term qigong, I still find it feasible to refer to it by its other names like yangshengong etc implying nourishing one's being/energy/spirit, though the methods may seem nonsensical. The modern qigong ideogram has a fire over rice cooking to reach a desired goal, while noble in spirit, alludes to a concrete end result, which at times still spread superstition.

I love the taste of green tea in the morning!
yeniseri
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:18 pm
Location: USA


Return to Qigong / Chi Kung

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests

cron