men and qigong practice

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men and qigong practice

Postby darth_freak » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:24 am

hi there!

I wanna ask men who regularly and diligently practice qigong how they regulate their *lower organ*. Do you get an unvolontary release every once in a while (like once a month) or some of you guys have found a pay to prevent that once and for all by some kind of technic?
Yesterday evening I did 30min of pieces of brocades, then 40min of hard crane qigong then about 1h of taiji qigong but this morning I was upset!
I believe that Reverse Abdominal Breathing may be part of the problem when training in the evening. I think I noticed that twice or thrice after an evening taiji class where I used RAB and when I used NAB it seemed alright... I try to use huiyin as much as possible, keeping it soft and gentle but I'm not yet at regulation without regulation.

Also I'm wondering if those *release* are "as bad as" having sex. Or maybe worth since there's no exchange.

That's quite a pain when you wanna have a daily qigong practice and you have to wait several days (though I just wait 24h but still!)

Any one? Any help? :cry:

And btw, why is that bad? Why do qigong masters said no qigong after and before ejaculation? I know the feeling is less strong and we are soft of weaker after but that hasn't always been the case with me: sometimes I had a stronger qi feeling when I decided to practice anyway.
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Postby clairvoyager » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:12 am

Interesting topic. I have wondered about that myself, as it happens to me occasionally, particularly in heavy training or abstinence periods.

Master Yang talked about a "male cycle", I think it was about 21 days. That means that after 21 days, most men feel the urge to ejaculate. I think this kind of natural cycles are neglected in modern society, whese sexual needs are much of a taboo already. A lot of people behave in aggresive, compulsive ways, because they don't address their sexual needs, and they might not know. This goes for the worse of the people around.

About qigong specifically, I feel you loose your energy much in the same way than with sexual intercourse.... only without the fun ;=) From my experience, I think it might be related to generating a lot of abdominal heat (qi) and not being able to store it adequately, either because a) your fail to keep your mind in you lower dan tien, b) your "battery" is not sufficiently conditioned. Try massage and ligh taps on the abdominal area when you feel like your belly is brimming with qi, which you can tell by getting acquainted with your sensations. It feels like a pressure from the inside and sometimes a slight trembling in your guts. I've have this experience specifically with embryonic breathing.

Personally, I think that essence-qi dispersion through male ejaculation is overrated. There are records of qigong masters with very active sexual lifes, booze, drugs, the lot. I suppose it is like running an account, it is how much you earn and how much you spend. Find your balance.

Also I don't wait that much between sex and qigong. Maybe a few hours, training time is precious, so I try to make use of it. Just be gentle, and listen to your body.
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Postby darth_freak » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:42 am

I'll try that.

Cheers :)
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Postby joeblast » Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:49 pm

"Be Natural" has been most of the advice I've received from 'those in the know.' (Natural as in once or twice a month for orgasms...not naturally every day :lol: ) For most qigong, abstinence is not absolutely necessary, but certain periods of certain neigongs require it.

Unless what your training in the evening requires reverse breathing, I'd stick with natural. Reverse breathing, especially if done in too yang of a manner (and perhaps with too much focus on the huiyin) might contribute to the symptom. IMHO, dont focus quite so much on the huiyin - once you have the method basically down, breathe with the body - huiyin is definitely a component, but shouldnt be the focal point of breath.

As far as 'other methods of release', I believe sex is the best possible one. The whole of the self is engaged, energetic exchange takes place and its usually not just a loss on your end...whereas if its your hand, well...for one that winds up putting undue pressure on the prostate which is why it gets weakened so easily if you spank it too much. As far as nocturnally, there are exercises you can do (the deer exercise comes to mind) that will help prevent unwanted nocturnal emission. A certain component is also mindset - a preponderance of lustful thoughts will naturally trigger bodily mechanisms to 'keep producing!' An acquaintance of mine claims you can transmute and internalize it all through full lotus meditation, but...honestly I cant sit full lotus for all that long :D

I agree on listening to your body. For a moderate 'workout', waiting 4-6 hours is generally sufficient, imho.
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Postby darth_freak » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:27 pm

right...
For most qigong, abstinence is not absolutely necessary, but certain periods of certain neigongs require it.


does that mean that if you do no NeiGong you shouldn't even care? (Though I think I'm getting confused between nei gong and nei dan)
As I said my practice is made of (trying to) 8 pieces of brocade everyday. Every other day hard crane qigong followed by soft crane qigong though now I'm gonna try taiji qigong, I can be more focused with that one. And the other days, the whole taiji form after the pieces of brocade. Though now I'm thinking of doing hard crane qigong everyday.

Thing is, I lose most of my internal or *qi* feeling and I feel like I can't practice without it. It feels like I'm leading nothing.

I haven't got a girlfriend and I don't do hands so I tend to have 100% abstinence. Though erotic thoughts eventually come. Maybe I should use them as a warning and by that time or within 20days should only do NAB in the evening or try embryonic breathing but I can't clear my mind at 100% during my qigong/taiji/meditation practices... But I actually started doing qigong regularly 3 to 4 months ago so I haven't been through all the regulation Master Yang speaks of within his books. Yet I started taiji and qigong about 5 years ago.

Master Yang once told me that huiyin was the key to avoid release. Though I feel I gain more benefits from NAB, Dvivid said that wether it's NAB or RAB, as long as huiyin moves it will have the same effect, that is draw the qi from the legs and thus the qi from the testies will go in the legs. That's what I understood anyway.

Also I have an unrelated question: if you wanna do grand ciruclation, must you really go through emb. breahing, then small circ and then grand circ? Or if you do grand circ often it will eventually get to a good level?
I'm wondering how Master Yang's masters proceeded when they taught him. Because from what I understodd he started embryonic breathing not so long ago. So how was he trained for his qigong?! Dvivid if you come by, and know the answer or have theopprtunity to ask Master Yang I would really appreciate that, as well as you feed back on the whole thing.

Thank you anyway
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Xavier
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Postby joeblast » Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:42 pm

the terminology difference is of little importance in this instance - nei dan (afiak ;) ) is referring to methods that train one internally, whereas nei gong is internal energy cultivation. I think its mostly a question of where the main focus of the exercise in question lies - is it just an internal compliment of cultivation, or is internal cultivation the primary focus?

I dont have a solid foundation for the reverse/natural argument, so unless a more knowledgeable source backs it up, take it with a grain of salt :)

what do you do for seated meditation?

when you feel as though you are 'leading nothing', is there a possibility that your mind has built it up or influenced it in some manner? not clinging to/creating sensations? (one must ask these questions of themselves and try to determine clearly, I dont want to seem like I'm asking down questions or something silly.) so...if the case is that you feel you are leading nothing, then might it make sense to conceptually change your practice to suit, i.e. go for a more stillness/emptiness-centered session?

I dont really know what's in the white crane hard qigong, but just made inferences from the 'hard' part.

good bulbospongiosus muscles/huiyin are indeed a key to good control. as far as further prevention, if you can find a copy of Nan Huai-Chin's To Realize Enlightenment that is among the first things he covers in that book. (I'd recommend anything from him, very good teachings.)

unrelated, personally I believe things like 4 gates breathing dont need to be 'waited for' - I've done plenty of that, and relatively little contrived small circulation. but then again, personally I do not feel that contrived small circulation is a necessary thing, at least in the beginning or to 'open up' the MCO (just a personal determination from the bulk of knowledge I've studied, practices I do.) I'm not quite knowledgeable on what dr yang teaches for grand circulation, i.e. how 'technical' he gets with it, so I couldnt say with certainty (is there a point to....actively circulating in jingluo or something that sounds odd like that? might be too much of an extrapolation :lol: )
I do youngquan breathing and I also do a laogong 'heat-sipping' method which works great in the winter....

in that foundation training Xing Shen Zhuang I learned, they told us not to focus on breathing whatsoever, only relaxation. the song fa gong meditation we did was only a relaxation as well. breathing methods were for more advanced stages. I still do XSZ (kicks bottom for spine/hips correction) but not the SFG, because I do kunlun which is more downward flow focused rather than fire path (or thunder path that FT teaches,) but again no leading with that, that one's a spontaneous practice and breathing is somewhat secondary, but has the ability to greatly amplify the practice (durr. :) )
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Postby darth_freak » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:13 pm

yeah I'm sort of used to a certain internal feeling that follows where my mind goes, feeling which I quite often lose after ejaculation but not always. I've always wondered if that feeling came from my imagination though.

I don't do seated meditation. I wish I had time to do it. Moreoever I live in a flat share so unless I wake up at 4 or 5am I can't have a noiseless envrionnement and I like my sleep too much to give up a few hours.
Sometime before going to sleep I do laying down embryonic breathing, sort of.
However I just did a taiji qigong session in which I barely had that feeling but I discovered some new feelings. I know it is said "don't watch the scenery". I'm still at the beginning of the path and have currently no master to guide me in my practice.

Hard qigong is, you inhale, lead the qi to your fists as you exhale while progressivly contracting your muscles towards the end and at the end of exhalation you're contracted and hold your breath for 5sec. The main idea is to trap the qi.
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Postby clairvoyager » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:42 am

Master Yang has stated that embryonic breathing is the fundamental practice for the yin aspect of taijiquan. It is the fundamental nei dan practice. In order to improve your small and grand circulation, get a good grasp of embryonic breathing first. It is not that you cannot or shouldn't do small/grand circ, it is that it will be so vague that the practice might be of little relevance. That will lead you to disappointment and frustration. I think that is where you might get the feeling of "nothing happening" or not being sure if you are "imagining things".

About master Yang process to learn meditation, I suggest you read his preface in the Small circulation book, I found that bit most interesting.

It would seem like you are dedicated, and you say you have no regular sexual relations. This might be a good period in your life to cultivate the yijinjing, but it would be good to have someone supervising on that.
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Postby darth_freak » Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:42 am

well hard crane qigong is basically yijin practice but i don't know any qigong masters in the area and anyway would I find a teacher, it would take some time to know if I can trust them. And I'm leaving at the end of may towards an uncertain future.

I haven't got the SC book because I got the DVD (which I haven't seen yet). But I was thinking about getting the book anyway...

I don't know if I'm dedicated, it's mainly that I want to improve my kungfu/taiji. I started that practice in mid-to-end-october. I try to be regular though it's not always possible.

thanks for your input.
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Postby Dvivid » Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:56 am

Hi. There are a few other threads about this.

http://www.ymaa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4383

http://www.ymaa.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

Im not dedicated in this aspect of practice, and Ive only experimented a few times with long-term abstinence. When I did, there was a very noticeable change in qi sensation for sure...and I had my strongest experience physical sensation of the dan tians. I recommend doing this at least once for a couple weeks, because once you have a VERY strong physical sensation of your Qi, you will invest much more seriously in your practice. For me, it was just verification that 'yes, qi is real'.

If you are abstaining physically, then you have to equally abstain mentally.

The only reason to do this is if A. you're becoming a monk/nun, or B. you are working on advanced Qi cultivation. In these cases, this 'extreme' behavior is warranted. Darth, I seem to remember you are one who is interested in becoming an immortal jedi.

But it isn't necessary for general health and vitality, and your qi will continue to develop with regular practice, even if you enjoy a normal regular sex life and/or occasional um, mishaps.

IMHO long-term abstinence is dangerous and unnatural. I also think it is healthy and productive to just listen to your body and don't worry about qi so much, and practice qigong every day in a deeply mediative state. Remember, 'you have to spend money to make money'. Qi cultivation is as much about building a constant flow of energy as it is about 'conserving'.

And, if there's one thing I have learned by teaching over the last few years, it is simply, 'Use it or lose it.' EVERY part of the body, and every single cell of the body, has to be used regularly to maintain healthy function. The cells that are used the least, degenerate more quickly.

My 2¢.
Last edited by Dvivid on Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Postby joeblast » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:03 pm

Good .02 as always David :)

To extrapolate on spending money to make money, I've heard it put in a qi-frame of moving qigong earns the money, meditation puts it in the bank. or something like that :lol:

Xav, unfortunate that you dont have a quiet environment to meditate - I'd recommending going for it anyway. You still manage to get to sleep at night, right? One doesnt need a pristine environment, though those are always best...yet tough to find. Ear plugs might help, but with some practice you wont even notice the background noise. There's no wrong way to eat a reese's though :lol: one can always enjoy it no matter the method used to smash it up, get it past the taste buds, and down to zee stomach! Try starting out with ~10 minutes of embryonic breathing after brushing up, before you hit the sack. 10 minutes is easy to get in, and once you've done it for a few weeks (=building the habit) then your body will more readily make up excuses to do it rather than avoid it! It should really make your hard qigong better if nothing else. I've gotten to the point a couple times where I began supplanting percentages of my sleep with deep meditation - I started doing that when I noticed that the deep meditation (eb, longevity ~minute breaths) I was doing was actually recharging me more than normal sleep. I'd imagine there's a point where it might be able to fully replace it, but you'd have to do a ton of it and get to a level far higher than I'm at to do so :lol:
Unfortunately I'm not immune to life's distractions though, those have knocked my practice out of whack more than once, which is why I've gone back to the practice and re-build the results...

I have a good turbulence ending breath method I'll post up if you guys are interested, good way to get to 'dantien breath'...and only dantien breath, not nose/sinus/throat/bronchi/lung breath :D That +embryonic breath+longevity breath=growing a huge qi ball, breath feels like it stops (not to mention time) and metabolism downshifts & hits the gas! At least for me when I practice that combo for a decent period of time and I can ramp up sessions deeper and deeper. If I hadnt done it during more than a few separate periods of time, I'd say it might be a coincidence...but I'm just entering another swing of it and I'm sure I will get another metabolic boost - funny thing with me is that its been an all of a sudden one session clicks and wow!?

Its in seated meditation where you'll develop better internal sensitivity, I'm sure with some practice you should be able to see the benefits. Maybe I'm just overly biased towards seated meditation - conversely, I dont have time to do any martial arts! hehehe :) (would love to have time to learn bagua and taiji...perhaps in the future...) I am a strong proponent of a good metabolic yin&yang - working out/martial arts/moving qigong gives your body a boost, high reference frame, quiet meditation gives it a low frame of reference, and the body seems to naturally snap into the middle, where you would like it to be.
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Postby darth_freak » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:45 pm

thx dvivid for your input :D I reckon physical abstinence is easier than mental abstinence. I've heard somewhere that when an emotion/feeling rise (and that you don't like it) you should just let it happen without undergoing it. (I don't know if it's clear as it's a translation from French from memory) so I try not to repress thoughts because I think I've already go quite a lot of repressed things here and there :-/

Joe, aright I'll try emb breathing. I guess I still very much have to work on my focus anyway so it may be a way to get to good concentration... cause I often get lost in some thinking or fancying during qigong :-/

Another thing, I enjoy abstinence, I feel full and solid, a feeling I quite often lose after sex as I'd feel empty and fragile. So as good as sex can be I often had a slight bitter regret after it.

thank you all, I galdly appreciate that :) :)
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Xavier
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Postby joeblast » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:11 am

Good luck, man! Extraneous thoughts are a bugger:

When meditating and you catch your mind wandering, dont fret about it, just put it back on the feelings of breath. Easiest thing for me is focusing on the physical sensations - that's usually enough to keep you mind from wandering....too much :lol: (same as dont beat yourself up for losing seed.)

An old master once said, You cannot close the doors of the mind to thought. That would take far too much effort and you will not win. Instead, leave the front door open, leave the back door open, and let them come and go...just dont invite them in for tea :)
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Postby The Hermit » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:43 pm

Hi,
in my experiance, this kind of nocturnal emission only ever happens when you are sleeping on your back. If you sleep on your right side, it never happens. This is also recommended by certain meditation masters for avoiding this problem.

Daoist masters have said that ejaculation is only possible (without harming your health) when all your internal organs are in balance. Also practicing all types of energy work and letting it leak away (with sexual desires), 'is like boiling sand when you want to eat rice, you will get nothing but hot sand, not rice.'
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