Another question about Embryonic Breathing.

[lilman]

In Dr. Yang's book on Embryonic Breathing it suggest keeping the Yi on the Qi. But it also suggests putting Yi on the Shen to keep it at its center. I keep my Yi on my Shen at the beggining to condense the Shen in the Spirit Valley, and then put my Yi on my lower Dantian for storage. But his book says that you should cool down and keep your yi on your Dantian. He mentions if your Yi is never not on your Dantian qi is consumed by your body... Should I train to keep my Yi on my lower Dantian 24/7 or should I practice, store Qi in my lower Dantian, cool down, then go on about my day?...

[joeblast]

your body is always generating and consuming qi. I wouldnt worry about trying to keep the yi at the ldt 24/7 - instead, practice natural abdominal breathing to the extent that you reach 'regulating without regulating' - practice and practice until you no longer need to use the yi to do the abdominal breathing. then you will spend much less mental capital on keeping the breath proper - but you will still need to use a bit of yi to keep it going, just nowhere near as much once you have achieved levels of real regulation.

as far as yi on qi, yi on shen, it depends what you are doing. personally, I will initially focus mostly on the breath, and once that becomes regulated in the session, then I will start to focus on the ldt...once that starts to become regulated, then extend.

[lilman]

I dont really have a problem with regulating, I can do reversed and normal abdominal breathing and coordinate my hui yin with no attention paid to it whatsoever.

I guess my confusion is in the practice. I dont really have a teacher I can ask and confide in as far as this, so this is the only place I have. Ive read and heard from a lot of people that you put your yi on your lower dantian so the Qi will be lead there and stored. Then my confusion is moreso on the face that Dr. Yang stated in the EB book that if your yi leaves your lower dantian the Qi will be consumed by the body and the practice will be in vein.

So when you practice, if your at the point of regulating of no regulating your breathing, just feel your lower dantian expand and withdrawl and you will build up your reserves? Then after practice you slowly recover and you dont have to keep your yi at your lower dantian to keep the reserve, only to build the reserve? Then after your 100 days when you lead the qi you should still have your yi partially on your lower dantian? Do I pretty much get it, or is there anything you would add or omit?...

I definately appreciate the help I got on this forum, but through books, people, and practice, I get a lot of conflicting information. Pls help me clear this up so I can further advance.

[joeblast]

Well I'm no absolute authority, but I have studied a bunch. In my travels I've found Dr Yang's theories to be very solid, within the scope of my experience.

Yi leads qi - so its dependent on what your intent is for a particular practice session. If you are focusing on embryonic breathing, then you are focusing on building qi in the ldt - so you will want to keep your yi there. If you are trying to build qi in the ldt and your mind is wandering here or there, then you will be handicapping your practice. When you can effectively quiet your mind, that is when your qi flows best. EB is almost a closedown procedure in and of itself - lots of other qi-moving exercises have you focus on storing in the ldt when you are done interacting with your qi. You dont necessarily have to keep the yi there at all times to prevent qi from dispersing, that would be a bit silly As you practice you will be able to store more efficiently.

It sounds like you pretty much get it - just keep in mind that a lot of this stuff is really only understood when experienced. Practice diligently, ponder sincerely with a clear mind and pure heart, and you will see the path be much more illuminated.

[lilman]

Thank you so much for your help and guidance.

A teacher can be found on a street, a crumbled old tree in your backyard, your nieghbor's cat, the sky, clouds, rivers, ocean can all be your teachers. Sometimes the best teacher is even yourself. Even though you say your no authoritive source, It sounds like your further down the road that I am, so again, thank you for your help.

[clairvoyager]

lilman, I'll tell you what I think, and it might help.

About keeping the yi on the lower dan dian to prevent qi dispersion, I think it refers "during the practice". The point is, if you don't keep your mind well centered in your lower dan tian (and at the same time in the spiritual valley), then qi will not stay in the thrusting vessel and fillling your dan dian, but it will follow its natual path, ie. the small circulation through the concepcion and governing vessels. In that case you are not accumulating energy in your "battery" but just circulating it in a peaceful and relaxed manner (but hey, even just that it's worth the practice).

Once you finish practice, just live your life, and do expend qi. I heard Dr. Yang say that qi is like money, if you don't spend it, you won't get more! It is like investing, you spend some to be able to make more. Slowly and gradually your income will increase if you persevere.

[lilman]

Thank you clairvoyager, that was helpfull info as well. The reason I got confused is because Dr. Yang states, if your Yi leaves your lower dantian, Qi will disperse and be consumed by your own body, making your practice in vain. If thats the case, what stops the Qi from dispersing after your practice? You keep your yi at your lower dantian and breathe into it, and build up your Qi, then after you stop, what keeps your Qi there?... Thats why I got confused...

[clairvoyager]

The way I understand it, the lower dan dian is like a battery. So it is (very roughly) similar to charging your mobile battery. You set up a time to charge the battery (session of embrionic breathing). When you are done charging it, then you unplug the battery from the power (you stop meditating) and start using your mobile, thus consuming energy (do whatever activity). It is a matter of not running out of battery

If you charge more than what you expend, then eventually you will have more and more qi, but your battery must be conditioned to be able to take the extra energy. That takes a lot of practice and time.

[joeblast]

imho one of the most important point of that is consistent practice, especially if you are looking to build qi.

[lilman]

I would like other people's oppinions on this... My teacher showed us another method to build Qi in the lower dantian and I tried it and it seemed to yield results a lot quicker for me than Dr Yang's methods mentioned in his books.

Stand or sit, or whatever in whatever position. hands on lower dantian. breathe in deep and slow. Mind should be blank and not focusing on any body part, just feeling what you are doing. At extent of inhale at breathe's natural pause, swallow saliva. You'll notice less breathe coming out as you exhale and feel immediate warmth in the lower dantian. Hui yin should remain slightly pulled up at ALL TIMES. Not just during inhale or exhale, and not only when doing meditation. Hui yin should only be released when letting something out down there. ie, bodily wastes, babies.

What my teacher explained is that as some of the treaties in Dr Yang's book embryonic breathing explains, is that swalowing the sweet dew leads Qi to the lower dantian. The long inhale pulls in the Qi. My teacher explains it follows the microcosmic orbit but in the opposite way Dr. Yang describes it. It goes up the skull down the spine, up to lower dantian, the qi is stored, up the chest and whats not stored escapes through the breathe. Thats why exhale is smaller. The Hui yin must ALWAYS be pulled cuz Qi travels like water, down, and escapes through the Hui Yin. If you open your hui yin at ANYTIME during meditation, taiji or qigong, thats where your Qi goes. You may store some, but your still loosing Qi. you also loose Qi if you look down. You should NEVER look down during practice. If possible at all you should never look down at all... You should also not practice around mirrors, cuz mirrors also drain your Qi. Have you ever felt great after a morning shower then while brushing your teeth in front of your mirror started loosing the great sensation? Pls give this method a try, and any opinions or questions on this would be greatly appreciated.

[joeblast]

I've read a lot of stuff and had some good conversations lately about this.

Per my digging (Nan Huai-Chin most readily comes to mind in Working Towards Enlightenment) one should focus on stillness and qi will naturally build and eventually circulate all on its own and contrived movement of qi is discouraged - at least until deep sensitivity has been gained, profound stillness attained.

I resonate with that - imho, stillness is the first thing you need to familiarize yourself with...until you do it, your understanding of phenomena is clouded. Its something I still have a lot of work ahead of me on! There have been times in my practices I've achieved lesser or greater amounts of stillness, and they have always had profound implications for my practices in general.

[lilman]

Thank you for the info joe blast. appearantly trying to feel the circulation does hinder the process. It can still be achieved, but appearantly will take forever. And that method is what books ussually teach, so learning from books is definately harder. The method I described I definately think should be explained in books and would cause a lot less damage to the practitioner.

Something else I just had a breakthrough on in Taiji is "trying". I recently saw a video of Cheng Man Ching doing Taiji and he looked so effortless and relaxed, but you could tell there was power. I asked my teacher why my taiji didnt look like that. I thought it was because you had to have years of practice in Sung before you could reach that level. He had me follow him through the 24, and pretend my arms were gone, and I was using a long sleeve shirt, and my waist was the only way to move them. It was VERY relaxing, and I never felt as good after performing a form. After a few times practicing the form, I could feel the air displace around my arms and hands as I done the form, and could feel the Qi on my face when my arms passed by in repulse monkey and brush knee. Then I realized, I was relaxed before when I did my form, but the error was trying to do the movement instead of letting it happen by itself. Im sure a lot of practitioners fall under the same error.

[joeblast]

Different things are appropriate for different time and levels of practice The feeling shouldnt be contrived. Seems to me that achieving true stillness isnt stressed enough in some systems, and most westerners...everyone wants to accelerate and pass...but like one of my buddies that races cars said about hitting the turns too fast - sometimes you gotta slow down in order to speed up!

[lilman]

Something else I learned today which kinda contradicts what Dr. Yang teaches, My teacher explained that Taiji has nothing to do with the mind. in fact, we are trying to defeat our mind. The applications should just happen without any thought whatsoever and we should be like what the hell just happened. When we do the form we do NOT lead the Qi. we let the Qi move naturally. You can feel the Qi when you brush next to your face in moves like repulse monkey and brush knee. When my teacher does his forms, you can feel his Qi from whatever attack he does several feet away. Its no trick, just clear your mind, and have intention in your form. The more you can relaxe, the stronger your Qi flow will be. From what I understand from Dr. Yang's book, it is essential to lead Qi in grand circulation during Taiji, my teacher says it happens naturally and theres no need to "lead" Qi anywhere. Its already there.

[joeblast]

I think that's what you want to work towards, but you do need to involve your mind in the forms just to get the body movements correct, at least initially. As is my experience with the embryonic breathing technique - when I first started doing it, I had to involve my mind a lot in order to get the bodily motions down proper before I reached the point where I could do it smoothly and pay it no mind.

Applying this concept to qi gong is a little different - with things that require physical action like a taiji form or a breathing technique, mind needs to be involved in order to develop sensitivity, whereas developing qi sensitivity requires stillness.

As far as applying the qi concepts to a taiji form, I'm no real martial artist so therefore my experience is limited - but I would surmise that there needs to be a combination of both methods applied at proper times to reach maximum potential. Since qi sensitivity is counterintuitive with respect to bodily action, that's what needs to be cultivated first - once you are intimately familiar with your qi I would imagine you could interact with it a little more as needed.

[lilman]

In some ways I definately agree with you Joeblast. As a practitioner now with Taiji as a martial art first and foremost, I kinda have a different perspective than I once had before.

I was able to successfully teach 100% of people who never studied Taijiquan and really didnt believe in Qi, within 2 minutes the unbendable arm technique which utilizes relaxation and Qi instead of muscle force. The people had no idea what Qi was, only heard the term before in the past. What this tells me, it is not as important to develop a feeling of circulation, as it is to relax and concentrate on the task at hand so to speak.

Qi is already within the body. we can store and develop more Qi, but when we familiarize ourselves too much with circulation and what we "should" be feeling then its harder to master even the simplest tasks. I now associate that kind of Qigong with Wushu martial arts, it may be effective in the hands of a "master", but its mostly for show and tell. How can you call a cartwheel (Shaolin Wushu, there were no cartwheels in traditional Shaolin) effective in a fight?... And this show isnt for others, its for yourself. It complicates matters that need not be complicated. Qi already runs through small and grand circualtion. You should learn how (the Qi flows), where (the Qi flows) and why (it flows in that direction), but people concern theirselves with the what, or in other words, feeling and trying to control the flow. All we really need to know is Qi follows Yi, Qi follows blood, and Qi and Li are related and inseparable. Qi knows the way. It IS nature. Daoism and Taiji are about working with nature not controlling it. Relaxation is the key to greater Qi. You focus on the enemy when you hit, not how the Qi flows to reach the enemy, so why train to feel whats already happening naturally? Cuz people like the control. I also fell a victim to that mistake for 4 years.

To show you what the unbendable arm is, if you dont already know, and to test my theory to see if Im lying or not, try this, you will need a partner:

hold your hand out in front of your body face hieght, dont matter if its to the front or to the side. Relaxe in a qigong posture, head held as if extended from above, eyes looking up (never look down in this practice, or it wont work), neck relaxed, shoulders relaxed, dropped and concave, chest concave, ribs dropped, lower dantian sinks till huiyin pushes out and forward, legs should feel as they wiegh 1000 lbs. have your partner place one forearm on the inside bend of your arm, and push down, and pull towards them, and use thier other hand to push, at your wrist, the arm towards your body, using all their wieght and muscle. First time resist with just muscle strength. Even if your stronger they should be able to bend your arm pretty easy. The second time, relaxe the arm completely. keep your eyes up, and just feel the point in the center of the palm. Keep your mind there, nothing else matters. Tell them to push the same way again. They WILL NOT be able to bend your arm, I dont care how strong they are. That is your Qi. They may be able to lift your arm up, but it will not bend. If you sink further and feel your elbow, they wont be able to lift up anymore. Now, after you established you can do the unbendable arm, try it this way, as they try to bend your arm, try "leading" Qi from the lower dantian out to the center of the palm. They will still bend your arm easily. Relaxation is the TRUE secret of Taijiquan. The mind plays only a small roll through intention by telling the Qi to strengthen the arm. After practicing so long, the mind doesnt even have to mention it. It happens naturally.

As far as the form goes, and other physical training, Yes, to learn the form, you do have to pay attention and learn with the mind, BUT at the same time, the mind makes it harder to remember and to keep hold of the forms. The best way I learn Taiji is to not think about the forms. First learn the footwork. My teacher taught me the first Shaolin stepping form, holding each posture 9 seconds. Then I incorporated it into my form. Then perform the individual parts of the forms with a teacher (video/book/etc) one to 3 times, then practice yourself 9 times. The first time you may need to think, but then you should stop. It will naturally become body memory after practicing 9 times for most people, but that doesnt mean stop practicing. If you stop you will loose it. And if you dont practice you wont advance. Once you learn the form, and you can do it without thinking, you have to learn to relaxe. your arms should be as if they are dead, and lead by the hips, and only go where their supposed to go cuz you know the dance, not because your willing or forcing them to go there. The more you can relaxe the stronger your Qi. The best way to test this is brushing your hand next to your face during some movements, and you should feel your Qi on your face as your hand passes. The more you relaxe the stronger the feeling.

The people that post on this forum has helped me a lot, so I will continue to post what I think will help you in return and the secrets I feel you need to know, that I dont think would fall into the wrong hands. I dont want anyone to think Im a know it all or think Im better than anyone else, because I dont, Im just confident in what Im learning cuz its been proven to me. and I encourage you to test what Im posting as well. I still have a lot to learn and I will continue to share my knowledge with those interested, because I remember my frustration at not having a reliable source, and this was the only one as to what I WAS learning.