microcosmic orbit, fire path, water path

Discuss Qigong, its ideas, theories and practice. Please stay on topic.

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soundws good

Postby yeniseri » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:35 pm

laotse,

a. Women report more headaches than men.
b. Body mass index (BMI) instigates an inflammatory response that triggers multifactorial conditions and can exacerbate current symptomology. Abdominal fat is precursor to hypertension, type II diabetes, syndrome X, and other diseases of civilization.
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Postby laotse » Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:37 pm

Hi

I heard from this difference between water and fire way.

Why the water path cool down the body?

What is 'Qi psychosis'? I never heard from it. What are signs of it?

And what is embryonic breathing, as dr. yang describe it? (please don’t tell me, that I should read the book, I only want to know some infos, because I read other authors about embryonic breathing)

That what you write about the chakras I think too. That’s what I mean in my statement. And also when the indian and chinese systems are different, the points and the meaning behind them are the same. Only the way is another.

What you write about fascias/ tendons its very very interesting. Can I anywhere read more about this? I don’t heard about it.


The reason of my headaches is too much qi in the head, I think. But that comes not from qi gong. I had headaches before I begun qi gong.
Is it the better way (by practising the fire way) to go from point to point or inhale and go along govering vessel, exhale and go along conception vessel???
I felt not so comfortable by the second way. I thought its too much pressure. When I go from point to point its softer, because the qi flow there by its own.


@yeniseri

i’m not a woman, and i’m not too big. I’m very thin.
So that are not the reasons

Regards
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Postby laotse » Mon May 01, 2006 4:16 am

@dvivid

you are not right with your comment about water path of microcosmic orbit.

i saw it in an excerpt of dr. yangs book embryonic breathing

http://publishing.ymaa.com/freebies/pdf ... sample.pdf

look there and you will see, that the water path is the path through the spine into the upper dantien and back to the front channel to the lower dantien.
i also don't know this. but it seems like to be so.

regards
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Postby Dvivid » Mon May 01, 2006 11:13 am

Hello, yes, that was a typo, sorry.

Embyronic Breathing as Dr Yang describes is when you keep your mind in the center of your Upper Dan tian in the area of the pituitary and pineal glands, and at the same time keep your mind in the center of your lower energy center. The energy is focused in the center of the body, and the mind becomes very quiet, reaching a neutral emotional state with no thoughts arising. Then, when you are able to hold both of these centers in a very calm state, use your Shen (spirit) to build Qi in the lower dan tian to an abundant level. Through deep abdominal breathing you generate a lot of Qi. By having a strong hold on your upper center you are able to lead all of the qi in the body to accumulate in your lower center. This boosts the immune sustem quickly, and will give you some abundant Qi to circulate in your practice.

In Buddhist and Taoist traditions, you also use Embryonic Breathing to unite the Shen and Qi in the Huang Ting area, above the lower dan tian until you 'conceive' a spirit body 'embryo', and eventually once it is strengthened, you will lead it up to the upper brain, and out through the third eye area.

For most of us, Embryonic breathing is way to reach deep levels of relaxation, and to get to a state of maintaining the brainwaves between delta and theta - a waking dream state, in which your awareness expands, and you have strong moments of clarity during which you may have a stronger experience of the true nature of reality. This is called samhadi in Buddhism. Eventually you can maintain this state for longer periods of time, and at a higher level - even during daily activities. This is very difficult, and it is the first of many stages of training toward true enlightenment.

Or so I have read.

Again, 'qi psychosis' is mental illness, insanity. It happens when you build up extra Qi and lead it into the brain before you are ready. If you can't hold the upper center strongly, the Qi energizes the brain, and sometimes if the mind is in a more 'open' state, this energy will make you have a million thoughts, hallucinate, or even cause permanent mental illness. So, don't fry your brain.

Regarding faciae/tendons etc - this is the basis of of all Dr. Yang's qigong theory. The tendons, sandwiched by fascia, are an electricly conductive battery, capable of storing and releasing Qi. I recommend you read his books, esp. the latest: Qigong Meditation - Small Circulation.

When I go from point to point its softer, because the qi flows there by its own.


The words to describe this are different for everyone. I think the 'point-to-point' circulation method is good. You can't PUSH Qi - it must be LEAD. So, by putting your mind in each point, one by one, the Qi will naturally follow. Often this is easier for some than to visualize than the entire vessel at once, so it is more effective.

Hope you're well,
D
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Postby BaguaMonk » Mon May 01, 2006 3:47 pm

Good conversation, I have a question for you guys.

Darth you spoke of "grounding yourself" this is what I need most, I am deep, and understand more than most. I think too much, and this makes me both much more aware, but also very "out there" as if in I'm not grounded in the moment, and constantly unnfocused. What kind of methods do you recommend to achieve this again? I know different types of chigong/meditation can either cause you to be very focused and sharp, or very relaxed and passive. I also know that the ideal is finding a blanace between both ends. But what would you guys suggest for the focused and sharp aspect? Specific methods would be great :)
"Absolute truth is obtained when the mind achieves complete stillness, the ego and thought are like shackles and chains, blinding you from the obvious truth"
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water path vs water method

Postby yeniseri » Mon May 01, 2006 4:20 pm

BM (excuse the connection),

I use grounding as in wujizhuang/zhanzhuang gong by holding posture and trying not to focus on anything (it is difficult if not prepared). It appears that certain people respond to specific postural body mudras.
Better to try to adopt a 'non postural zhanzhuang posture' as in taijizhuang or even santishi (xing-i postuer) to evoke some kind of response and follow for 1 month.

Holding the ball posture may be too routine for you so perhaps a different posture may be recommended. Try yangzhang as pile standing and experiment! Practice the same posture around the same time period daily for 30 days.

joker
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Postby BaguaMonk » Mon May 01, 2006 4:51 pm

Ok thanks.

I am familiar with the Zhang Zhuang, and I used to practice every once in a while. Didn't really get into it for daily practice beacause I'm not sure if its what I needed (but also because I'm lazy or busy :) ) I will try holding ball, and San Ti shi for about a period of a month. I have about 8 in my class (from Liang style) that are pretty interesting, but some of them are too intensive.

So obviously mornings are the best times?
Any other methods people might want to share? :)
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Postby laotse » Tue May 02, 2006 10:20 am

Hi

I never heard from this kind of breathing. The qigong teacher i read (zhi-chang-li, mantak chi,....) didn’t spoke about this. They only said, put your attention into your dantien and stay there till you feel qi collecting there or so.

I never heard from put your mind in the upper center and in the lower center at the same time.
But when i do so, don’t go the qi in the head?
And whats the effect of being concentrate in both centers at the same time?

I thought its not good to go in the beginning state into the brain.


The only way of prevent “frying the brain” is to have a good strong feeling in the lower dantien?
I have a very strong feeling in my upper dantien. So have i to do the embryonatic breathing now before practising microcosmic orbit?



Whats the difference between the real lower dantien and the false lower dantien?


Thank you very much for your detailled instructions

regards
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Postby Douglas Scott DuLac » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:47 am

Laotse,

You have some good questions... What do you mean by real and false lower dan tien?

Talking about putting your mind into two places, I found this qi gung for health book in China. Written by Li Heshing. Called, ' Self Therapies for Common Diseases.' It's a gold mine of self therapies. But anyway, some of the qi gungs recommend that you put your mind in two accupoints. For example there's one that stimulates brain function and developes intelligence.
It says to stand or sit and close the eyes gently. Connect the thumbs and for fingers(accupoint of the hegu)at the tips , so that the fingers are facing down. Between the fingers and thumb is the shape of an upside down pyramid. In the middle of the hollow of the thumbs and forefingers is the bellybutton, or dan tien. You should touch the lower abdomen with your palms.
Next visualize the acupoint of the baihui. (at the center of the top of the head) while inhaling; and visualize the acupoints of the fengchi[( a point below the occipital bones in the cervical part, a hollow between the sternocleidomastoid and the upper end of the trapezius muscle)the jade pillow- the point where the neck and the head meet]. Inhalation and exhalation make up one cycle. Repeat 108 times.
Now raise the hands over the sides of the head-palms facing toward the head and make 108 circles in a backward rotating motion (top-back-down-forward). Then make another 108 circles with the hands in the opposite direction. After finished let the hands hang down naturally.

This really sends qi into the head and it is a self therapy qi gung. It may be that you are safer before building up a lot of qi in the lower dan tien. I'm sure that's been mentioned before! But as long as you know how to bring the qi back down to the lower dan tien then I believe it should be safe for all. I'm not a doctor and this is not a presciption for ...anything.

So, in relation to other inquiries about qi gung having side effects and the danger or lack of danger I think its safe to say its simply a matter of personal constitution and energy reserves. Someone may do the above exercise for a year and feel nothing, and another one could do the microcosmic for three weeks and open all the meridians and feel a strong qi flow. I may be stating the obvious.
The greatest manifestations of martial arts is the compassion, peace and health that merges from the training.
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Postby Dvivid » Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:30 pm

The concepts of real and false dan tian are fundamentally important. Qigong 101.

The false dan tian is the front of the abdomen, comprised of 6 layers of muscle and fascia. It is capable of storing energy like a battery due to its structure, up to a point at which you'll feel the muscles there jumping and the whole area gets warm. But, because its located on the path of the Conceptional Vessel, the energy there can't truly be stored, and it will flow into your small circulation path and be consumed.

Only by leading the mind inward, behind the abdominal muscles, to the physical center of gravity, in the area of the large and small intestines, can you store Qi to abundant levels. This area is the real dan tian.

Regarding the 'Self-therapy' exercise - yes, that would certainly lead Qi to the head. But why? i think that might give me a headache. I guess if the goal is to flush the back side of the brain with excess Qi, then it would do so...but since the front area of our brain is where our compassion and higher intelligence is seated, maybe we should focus more on that area?

Seriously, probably a well-balanced practice of Embryonic Breathing, with the mind residing in the upper and lower dan tians equally is safest, healthiest, and will lead to the most balanced progress.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Postby Douglas Scott DuLac » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:09 am

Yes, I'd say if there were centers through out the world that were over looked then they would be the higher compassion and intelligence centers.I suppose you could choose your spots if you knew how to lead the qi down afterward. But isn't the point at the nape of the neck, refered to as the jade pillow, the point point of heavenly intelligence? It seems that that would promote compassion.

Re the false dan tien: I see. I didn't look at it like it was in the path and being so gets drained. It makes sense. Thanks.
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Postby joeblast » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:55 am

laotse, the reason people keep saying 'read the books' is because there's a lot of underlying knowledge that supports the answers to the questions you ask. a quick and easy answer will not get you the full compliment of knowledge you're looking for! if you're reading other authors' work on embryonic breathing, then it can only be complimented (and quite well, imho) by forking over the $20 or so for Dr Yang's EB book.

after reading it...the price of the book is a paltry sum in comparison to the wealth of knowledge you're getting. I'd also highly recommend the Root of Chinese Qigong based on the questions you're asking.
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Postby Douglas Scott DuLac » Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:04 am

Laotse,

The 'Root' is an excellent book to have in your library. It coincides well with Mantak Chia's 'Awaken the Healing Energy Through the Tao.' I think Joeblast said it perfectly. Those two books are great as fundamentals. Build the base with lots of reading.
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