Recreational Drugs & Qi

Discuss Qigong, its ideas, theories and practice. Please stay on topic.

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Postby Inga » Sat Oct 15, 2005 8:10 pm

I like the point about the word DRUG and the stereotype that goes with it. I guess I think of a drug as a manufactured product rather than a natural one (ie herb or vitamin). While I am horrified at the thought of myself taking a drug to enhance any experience in my life for any purpose (here I hasten to add I agree with the others who wouldn’t care to judge Flip’s lifestyle choices..he ain’t hurting me in any way) I would not hesitate to use them to heal, such as the use of antibiotics if I have an infection. I take drugs which regulate my monthly cycle, that’s pretty interventionist (and boy I’m bloody glad of them). Yet I take herbs on a regular basis to boost my immune system, improve (one hopes) my memory and stave off colds. Thank you for helping me to expand my viewpoint on this.

P.S. No need to point out that marijuana is an herb..I am making some generalisations here about my preconceptions and how this topic has got me thinking in a different way.
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Postby DOM » Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:04 pm

drugs will hold you back from anything you want to achieve,and that is fact.On a different note regarding how dangerous qigung can be,I have heard this and have also read this in DR.Yangs books.My qestion is in what ways and how do you know if you are harming your self by doing gigung.I have heard this so often that I am begining to qestion if training it is realy worth the risks
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Postby TonyM. » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:34 am

The question I would ask myself would be; Am I getting better or is my behavior getting psycotic?
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Postby Flip » Tue Oct 18, 2005 12:10 pm

Tony,

I'm not sure I understand your question/point.

Psychosis is the state of losing touch with reality. That being the case, there are many people who would say that the practice of circulating your Qi in order to keep our triple warmer functioning properly is psychotic.

I'm not in a position to ascertain what is reality and what is not. Regardless of my qualifications, religious texts would lead one to believe that non-existence is existence, reality is an illusion, and that being and non-being are one and the same. So in that regard, there isn't a reality to lose touch with, or perhaps a person that you call 'psychotic' is in touch with either a different reality than you, or the same reality but viewed from a quite different angle.

In my experience, recreational drugs have quite the opposite effect of separation from reality; in fact, they allow reality to be perceived in other manners than that I'll call 'the usual' and foster a learning and understanding of 'reality' that is more developed.

In general, this thread has gotten way off having anything to do with Qigong practice. I think that if we wish to discuss recreational drugs in general, we should move this to the 'general discussion' board.
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Postby DOM » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:37 am

Maybe if we can get back to my original qestion,we can get back on track.My qestion and concerns are the dangers of chigun.I hear a lot of peale state this including Dr.yang.But I do not remeber reading or hearing any one get into how specificly.I know medical chigung is the safest,and small and grand circulation being more of a risk if not done properly.But how dose one know if there doing something that will bring them harm.Is there certain symptoms to look out for,and if so how do you correct them.Would you need to see a chinese Dr. for herbs or acupuncter?sorry for the spelling
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Postby scramasax57 » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:07 pm

i believe the problem is trying to do too much too soon, and losing control of your chi and damaging the flow by trying to direct it.
aka eric hinds, 2nd stripe
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Postby DOM » Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:20 pm

thanks for the reply,but what I am looking for is specific symptoms that are tell tale signs of somthing going wrong,and how to correct them.It is funny how some things work.A few moments ago I got some answers to my qestions wile reading a book from kumar Frantzis.I had just started reading the chapter on using energy to heal,a few pages latter blam,repairing agitated chi.The first sentence reads a good energy teacher omparts students how to smoothly develope chi with out side effects.there are incorrectchigung practices that can negitivly impact a students chi,and or central nervous system.He goes on to say that the I CHING based bague healing techniques are particularly effective for repairing the aftermath of improperly performed chi gung.Then he goes ont to say that these skills are extremly rare even in china.He goes on to say that the bagau healing systemuses the eight primery energys of the i ching,along with the diagnosing the three tantiens to treat what has gone physically,emotionaly,psychologically or spititualy wrong with the body do to improper chi gung practice.Very interesting and disturbing stuff.But still no specific symptoms or treatments.After reading this I am really starting to qestion if the risks are worth it.Sad to say these side effects parallel the use of of drugs for recreational use.I feel this is a subject that needs to be exsplored and researched and disscused in much more detail.
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Postby DOM » Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:18 am

hate to reply to my self but I just took Dr.Yangs Root of Chines Chigung of the shelf and found a section all about this subject.I read this once before some time ago but did not realize it went i to symtoms,causes and treaments.I do not have time tonight to realy look it over but I will when I get achance.I would like to realy get into this subject and apperciate any one thoughts and exsperiances.Thanks
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qi gong and entheogens

Postby entheogens » Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:12 pm

This is my first time to this board and I am happy to find this topic here.
It is certain that a lot of cultures have used entheogens to explore the spiritual world. I have used them towards this end.

I personally believe that for SOME people entheogens can be a vehicle. For some other people they can just be a distraction, or worse, they can be dangerous for some who are psychologically unstable.

Too much entheogens, especially when not used in appropriate circumstances and mindset, can turn one into a burn-out and a flake. But guess what, so can qigong, yoga or these other practices...when ill-used they can really unground a person. If you dont believe me, go to the local yoga center or health food store and see how many flakey people there are...more than you will find in the general population, I guarantee you.

Anyway, I am very open to different thoughtful ideas on this subject, but I am really wary of this conservative tendancy to disparage entheogens by those who have never really considered them but are just speaking like taped messages. The final word on mind exploration has not been uttered yet and to just fall back on trite sayings that you picked up from DARE are not helpful. Think and explore!
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Postby Dvivid » Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:18 am

Thanks Entheogens. Important to note that any substance can be beneficial or destructive when used by different people. Please understand this forum community is global, and this subject may be new to many readers, and that the language barrier can easily cause miscommunications.

The term 'Entheogens' refers to any psychoactive substance (most often plant derived) that occasions enlightening spiritual or mystical experience, used in a religious or shamanic context.

Those opposed to entheogens often use the claim that "drug-induced" religious experiences are invalid because they are "just" a result of drug action on the nervous system. However, there is an enormous amount of evidence that certain drugs can facilitate the experience of states of consciousness that are then described by the experiencing subjects in words that are indistinguishable from many reports of religious experiences without drugs.

In the Marsh Chapel Experiment, which was run under the supervision of Timothy Leary, graduate student volunteers at the Harvard Divinity School, almost all reported profound religious experiences under the influence of psilocybin. A brief video about the Marsh Chapel experiment can be viewed here:http://home.comcast.net/~yoism/IntroLeary.html

Interesting stuff.
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Postby DOM » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:23 am

great post on clairifing this subject.I would never promote this kind of practice for it should only be used by the very few who will and can use it for the write reasons.After some exsperiance with chigung and the information on the dangers of chigung(DR.Yangs root of chigung)and kumar Frantzis book combat secrets of tachi,xinyi,bague,I am beging to feel that most peaple with regualar lives and family probably should not go past medical chigung.Look at chapter 14 in the root of chines chigung.There is some realy bad things if true that can go wrong.It reads worse then the warnings on cigerets and persciption medications.WhenI first read this chapter I was alittle concened to it as good practice advise but not realytake it to heart.But know after a deeper level of practice and understanding and possably some negitive effects by not complety following the warrnings.I wounder if the deeper leveles past medical chigung should be left to those that can devote there lives purly to these practice with out the worries of the world to do them harm in there practice.Look at some of the warning about sex disruptions from out side influnces to many thoughts ect.How can some one that has a family,works,bills to pay,kids to raise,heed to these warnings.
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New to all, old to all

Postby L.M.Rye » Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:19 am

Very provocative discussion, and I think all parties have offered commendable insight and questions. I wouldn't presume to offer the following long post if I weren't long-winded to begin with and if I didn't believe I have something to offer, so, here goes....

I am new to the proper practice of qigong, in the sense that I have only recently undertaken the study of it through Dr. Yang's books and before this had experienced and studied only what I came upon accidentally, in search of mysteries and explanations. I am sorry that I must make my debut on YMAA's school web site with such a post, revealing all of my mistakes and pitiful self-indulgences, but while I realize that such an admission may make further explanations necessary, I do so to properly preface the following statements, so please bear with me.

I have damaged myself through psychotropic experimentation, though I am not certain the damage is permanent or impermanent, and I don't believe the evaluation is mine to make. It is equally true, however, that many people damage themselves similarly simply by eating to excess. What the body intakes and processes has as profound an effect on perception as on physical dimension or capability. This indicates to me that perception is not the root of being, but an effect. My experience with perception-altering substances has invariably led me to a single fact: when perception changes, awareness stays the same, and only grows or shrinks in magnitude.

In many ways, the fear of damage can lead to the perception of damage, which can contribute to actual damage. I must say this although I have no way of proving how this is apparent to me.

A question I have carried with me since the beginning of my days of substance experimentation and exploration of my own qi is: what is the nervous system? Beyond what has been deduced and what is visible in a cadaver, what is the nervous system? To a child, this is a silly question, but I think it is very important to approach some fundamental questions with what has been called, the Beginner's Mind. The nervous system exhibits certain clearly identifiable properties, but its nature is mysterious and each person one asks will invariably give a slightly different answer to the question of what it is. Perhaps then, the answer of what it is is not important, or perhaps the answer is a mirror of the person asking it, and in that way the answer has importance.

Those familiar with Zen would perhaps, at this point, tip over a bucket or rap me on my head with a stick.

To close, I think it can be useful to expose the movement of awareness, and the flow of qi, through the use of substances such as psychotropics. But it is much more important, in my estimation, to do so without the aid of these substances because the movement of qi exists in living beings without the introduction of these substances, and to utilize them only emphasizes the use of substances and not the flow of qi.

For the record, my favorite Zen koan is the one which asks,

"What was your original face?"


Thanks for your patience, and, as is said in yoga,

Namasté (I bow to you)
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A small clarification....

Postby L.M.Rye » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:13 pm

I meant that the answer can be a mirror of the one who provides the answer, in the same way the question can be a mirror of the one who asks the question.

Sorry for any confusion, and again, I thank you for the opportunity to share.
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