Recreational Drugs & Qi

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Recreational Drugs & Qi

Postby Flip » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:40 pm

Have any people here used recreational drugs as tools for kickstarting qigong practice? There are psychotropic drugs that if ues properly create an advanced world and body awareness. The descriptions of nirvana and enlightenment that I read are often very similar to experiences that can be achieved by taking certain drugs (LSD is the most common but there are many new ones available too.)

Most people are aware that many ancient (and modern for that matter) civilisations have shamanistic traditions involving drugs...are there similar concepts in traditional Chinese herbal medicine? I am sure that with their advanced knowledge of herbs that the Chinese must have been aware of ones that have psychotropic porperties.
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Postby Dvivid » Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:28 am

hmmmm a taboo subject, previously not brought for discussion. this could be interesting. Some teachers, Master yang included, feel that using drugs to attain higher states of conciousness is 'cheating', using a shortcut, and ultimately delays, or destroys your chances of, attaining higher states naturally.

One thing I WILL say is that I recently became aware that the Chinese discovered marijuana thousands of years ago, and had a lot to do with its proliferation.

What new drugs do you speak of?
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Postby TonyM. » Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:51 am

I was trained by the someone from the Chinese freemason/CIA ratline.
Do yourselves a favor and stay away from all that garbage. Garbage in, garbage out.
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Postby Flip » Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:26 am

Dvivid wrote:
What new drugs do you speak of?


There's always new drugs being devleoped (usually in California) that are not illegal (mainly because the FDA isn't aware of them or they aren't that common). Drugs such as 2CB, "Foxy" (or 5-meo-DIPT) and its derivatives are all extremely potent but until recently not technically illegal. Many can even be bought online, although I don't know how smart that is.
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Postby Flip » Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:40 am

TonyM. wrote:I was trained by the someone from the Chinese freemason/CIA ratline.
Do yourselves a favor and stay away from all that garbage. Garbage in, garbage out.


I don't know what the CIA ratline is, but I think that using un-neutral words like 'garbage' hinders disucssion, especially given that you provide no reason for your opinion. Even the word "drug" has implicit connotations (usually negative for most people) that hinder discussion - but I started the conversation using that word so my bad. Perhaps I should have said 'substances' or 'dietary supplements'

Do the same people that object to the use of western drugs also object to taking herbs that stimulate qi circulation? Do they object to sensory and/or physical deprivation (such as extended periods of silence or fasting) being used to alter conciousness?

I don't know but my guess is they don't.

I agree that if the only reason to take these drugs is to frequently and temporarily attain these states is cheating yourself and will probably not yield the desired results.

My opinion is that, if used sparingly and as a tool to achieve these states, these drugs may be extremely beneficial. An analogy I can make is this: When you're too short to see what's on the top cupboard, you can stand on a stool and sometimes catch a glimpse of what's up there. When you finally grow tall enough, you no longer need the stool and can reach for yourself. (okay its a boring analogy but i just made it up :wink:
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Postby TonyM. » Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:08 pm

I have to agree, but remember I didn't say that in public!
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Postby adamfuray » Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:34 pm

when you are ready to "see" the benefits of qigong, you will see it then and not a minute sooner. if there was a correlation between drug induced euphoria and enlightment, you would never have the necessary tools to reap the benefits, because these tools are gained through the proper training methods. i have met people who have experienced some miraculous stimuli. however, the positive impact it had on their life was shallow, or non-existant. the negative possibilities, relatively, are extrordinarily significant. to me, it is a distraction at best. the definition of qigong is energy WORK that takes TIME.
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Postby darth_freak » Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:35 am

though, Master Yang had once talked about some herbs called ginseng and "8 tresaures" that are used to increase the amount of qi...
"Turn your butt!"
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Xavier
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Postby TonyM. » Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:54 am

Using sustances to try to stimulate chi goes against the Tao.
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Postby Flip » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:20 am

TonyM. wrote:Using sustances to try to stimulate chi goes against the Tao.


In what way? Please explain.
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Postby TonyM. » Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:40 pm

Do your own homework.
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Postby beggarsu » Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:55 pm

Ma Ku is a popular goddess in Taoist mysticism. There are stories of her human life, but she is generally regarded as marijuana itself. She is particularly popular in Shangqing Taoism. Also of note is the fact that when you sleep, psychedelic drugs such as 5meo DMT and DMT (they have analogous effects to LSD) are produced by your brain, and are evidenced by having dreams.
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Postby adamfuray » Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:27 pm

are your qigong teachers and/or systems not satisfactory? if your qigong experience is so that you have to go out on such a limb, you aren't practicing enough or your teacher is a fake. deeper aspects of qigong are not to be explored alone. they get dangerous. can an attempt to accelerate the process without guidence ever be safe and/or productive?
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Postby scramasax57 » Mon Oct 03, 2005 6:35 pm

/\ this man speaks truth.
aka eric hinds, 2nd stripe
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yang's martial arts association

changchuan, baihe, and xingyi
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Postby Flip » Tue Oct 04, 2005 6:56 am

I direct this question towards anybody in the "it's a fake experience if you use drugs" camp: How much experience taking drugs do you have?

And rather than get into semantics, I'm talking about true mind-altering substances, not milder drugs like weed or alcohol.
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Postby scramasax57 » Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:25 am

i can't speak for anyone else, but i for one didn't mean it was a "fake" experience. it just seems to me that if one has a good, experienced teacher and trains very hard, one wouldn't feel the need for expensive, and possibly illegal, help. and if these drugs are so new, how do you know they are not dangerous? you've got no history to guide you. i for one would rather do it the old fashioned way and trust my teacher. but i am by no means condemning or belittling your way, because i have not tried combining the two, so i have no basis for judging it.
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Postby yat_chum » Thu Oct 06, 2005 3:57 am

yijing zhidong

use stillness to overcome movement
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Postby maartenm » Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:10 am

If you've heard about these funky substances, perhaps you know http://www.erowid.org?

Did a quick search and came up with:
interesting quote about xtc: (Saunders)
I have had several reports from people who have used Ecstasy while practising yoga and tai-chi besides one who has only taken Ecstasy while doing kung fu and yoga:
I was very aware of soothing warmth permeating my body. I began to put more energy into my form and experienced an increasingly heightened perception, reaching a peak after about 45 minutes. One of the major aspects that the E shed light on was the use of energy (prana/chi) rather than a focus on muscular strength. My overall impression of the benefits of E usage in Hatha Yoga was that the session overall had its own distinct harmony and produced a highly balanced mode of perception in which contradictions of body and mind were 'synthesised' into a very pleasant equilibrium. The insights gained from the session have been incorporated into my daily practice, so that now the sensations produced by the E can be reproduced by the yoga - rather like a free trip.
The effect of Ecstasy on Kung Fu was to make clear that the user, who was male, was good at the hard or yang movements but had neglected those that were soft or yin:
I found that the softer 'feminine' touch counterposed the external, physically athletic 'male' side of kung fu, the balance of the two working in harmony improved the speed, power and insight into a given technique to quite a considerable degree. . . though I am not sure I would wish to be challenged to a fight under the influence.

And a few more:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=40012
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=25157
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=6520

So there appear to be some people with awareness of both qi and entheogens, but what they really know about either remains a question... a lot of people interested in these things are so only while in college and tend to like anything mystical and see qi as the Force from Star Wars. Not that I know anything about qi or drugs, that's just an observation.

Lot's of related topics like peyote religion, ayahuasca, Alan Watts, Huxley...

Perhaps a more thorough search will yield something more interesting. Or you could try and ask them: http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.cgi?Action=AskQuestion , very friendly people.

You could also try and make some online Chinese friends and have them search the internet in Chinese.

Nice little commercial for the War on Drugs by the way :)
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Postby Flip » Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:34 am

maartenm wrote:If you've heard about these funky substances, perhaps you know http://www.erowid.org?

So there appear to be some people with awareness of both qi and entheogens, but what they really know about either remains a question... a lot of people interested in these things are so only while in college and tend to like anything mystical and see qi as the Force from Star Wars. Not that I know anything about qi or drugs, that's just an observation.



Thanks for looking that up - I'm familiar with Erowid, a very valuable resource but hadn't checked it out re: this.

My experience with drugs predates my experience with qigong by about 11 years. Qigong and kungfu I've come to quite recently, within only the last 18 months.

I probably never would have 'believed' in Qigong had it not been for the different aspects of my body and life that these drugs had made me aware of. Luckily I wasn't a mystical-fratboy like you describe above.

Over the last two years my drug use has decreased ten-fold as there isn't a lot left that drugs can do for me. I'm sure that part of the reason is also that I'm more concious of what goes in my body, and about its natural energy.

But I'm quite certain that, for people who can handle taking drugs (and lots of people can, and lots of people really cannot), that it could help a beginning qigong practitioner excel, or for an experienced student could help them over a 'roadblock' if they've been stuck for a while, without any long term negative impact on their health or on the value of their practice.
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Postby maartenm » Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:44 am

I think that's a valid viewpoint.
I didn't want to imply that you were or are abusing drugs or using them like candy without meaning.
I know about the new awareness that some of these things can bring along.

I guess there's just too much to learn about. If one can find the time to research these mind altering substances and psychology and religion and anthropology and practice qigong at a high level ... :)
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