teaching softness to people who think they are soft already

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teaching softness to people who think they are soft already

Postby chh » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:11 am

A sub-topic came up in this thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7671 about experienced students having trouble with softness. There's a few specific ways that I find teaching softness or referring to it when training with a partner difficult. Particularly, it is hard to put feedback about it across to people who want to learn *some* tai chi without engaging in martial arts practice. My assumption here is that it's good for people to go to tai chi classes even if they're not pushing hands. I wonder if other people have similar experiences and some ways of approaching the problem.

In general, it's hard to get anyone to react to trouble with softness. That is the basic, surface level problem and I think it's probably why taijiquan systems look the way they do in the first place. But...

Specifically, I've come to find that people (beginners, me, non beginners) approach their practice already feeling like they're soft, like it's the default position to be in, and then fail to notice they're not unless constantly made aware of it verbally on top of whatever exercise they're doing. Sometimes people are limp instead, but I find most often they are tense and rigid. I encounter this *especially* with people who normally abstain from all martial-seeming exercises out of principle or just lack of interest. I can sympathize with that sentiment, but the result is that you have people in the class presumably feeling super peaceful about themselves, but actually being super tense, at least where it's possible to observe.

It makes me worry about the way people are doing things like the form, and whether they're getting anything of value out of their practice in terms of relaxation or softness. I have seen white knuckles once or twice, etc :|

So my question isn't about how to make people great, complete taijiquan practitioners, but how to make sure they're getting some of the fundamental benefit they're seeking out of the practice. I'd like people in that position not just to get better at balancing, but also to be able to relax.

Any thoughts?
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Re: teaching softness to people who think they are soft alre

Postby Monsoon » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:08 pm

I don't know how to approach this from a teaching point a view, but will think on it.

As an aside, I got home form work yesterday in a bit of a rush. Went into the garden to practice and felt distinctly out of sorts, unconnected with what I was doing. It was all about the relaxation. It is very easy to allow tenseness to creep in I guess.

Ultimately, diligance and perseverance are the key.
peace and harmony

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Re: teaching softness to people who think they are soft alre

Postby caesar » Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:29 am

chh wrote:So my question isn't about how to make people great, complete taijiquan practitioners, but how to make sure they're getting some of the fundamental benefit they're seeking out of the practice. I'd like people in that position not just to get better at balancing, but also to be able to relax.

Any thoughts?


How would ZZ work? A quick way to notice the tensions...And then another thought...if the students aren't coming to learn the martial...but ok then still to do basic posture testing, meaning gentle pushing from different directions forcing the student to relax more if the aim is not to fall or loose balance...?
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Re: teaching softness to people who think they are soft alre

Postby chh » Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:54 pm

Yeah- I think those are good ideas. Seeing where and when you get tired doing post standing (or the form for that matter) is a good way to detect some tension. Going along with what Monsoon said, I think it takes diligent practice to notice and respond to tension when it comes up this way. I'll remember this idea!

It also makes sense to do some gentle balance-challenging exercises, and probably wouldn't be objectionable. I remember doing this in push hands classes- it's a good way to get used to responding correctly to pushes anyway. So, maybe some more deconstructed, basic exercises responding to that kind of pressure in a non-competitive, balance oriented way.

Thanks for those suggestions. If anyone else has ideas, this is a topic I'm interested in talking more about :)
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Re: teaching softness to people who think they are soft alre

Postby yeniseri » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:01 pm

Perhaps there is a lapse in terminology (!semantics???)but I would never think of 'softness' as a starting point in taijiquan. I would begin with:
a. postural integrity
b. relaxation
c. chan su jin (silk reeling)

a. my definition of postural integrity would come from starting with individual posture 'playing' (lack of a better word) repetition integrating that and taijizhuang criteria i.e. watch the tensing of shoulders, waist (yao/kua complex) and lumbo-sacral area.
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Re: teaching softness to people who think they are soft alre

Postby chh » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:09 am

Yeah, I see your point, yeniseri.

Maybe this is a weird view, but I think training softness is an important way to get people to really attend to relaxation, although I understand why you're thinking of relaxation as more of a starting point than softness.

One part-observation, part-instilled belief I have is that people have quite a bit of trouble actually learning to relax, especially beyond the most noticeable areas like the shoulders, and one of the only ways people reliably learn to relax is being in situations where being tense causes problems. So maybe the form and some standing meditation is one way to approach that, but one very big class of such situations is what happens in two person exercises and drills like push hands, which I think are really meant to get at what is called 'softness'.

I know you can start thinking about relaxation without bringing that stuff into the picture, but I wonder whether people are good at learning relaxation that way. I'd like to know more of what you mean by 'posture playing', because it sounds like that would be the way to go, maybe like caesar's ZZ suggestion.
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Re: teaching softness to people who think they are soft alre

Postby joeblast » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:50 am

If one is to really learn the softness aspect of it, it simply must be done through experience. That is the reason taiji is a martial art, if you separate the martial aspect of it then you are giving up the root of the concept. You can learn things like postural integrity and such by doing the forms and receiving instruction, but until you start doing things like pushing hands with someone that really knows this and has experience with it, it will remain in the conceptual realm and you will not gain that experiential understanding. Pushing hands with an experienced practitioner, he should be able to tell you where you've gone wrong simply by his own listening to what your body is doing. If he is indeed experienced, of course. A total beginner is like pushing a block of wood, a master is like pushing at an uncontained column of water. An experienced enough practitioner should be able to listen well enough to tell you whether its your hips or your shoulders or your arms that are rigid and not listening. All it takes is listening well enough after having gained the requisite sensitivity.

And you will not get these fundamental aspects of tai chi if you remove the martial aspect of it. Having the martial aspect, those fundamentals flow forth into the form and everywhere else.

I had the pleasure of watching a couple *very* experienced practitioners push hands last week at a bbq...so it was easy and good natured, but very instructive nonetheless watching two guys who *really* knew how not to give up their center or lose their root. It is an aspect of tai chi that is utterly fundamental to learning it well and actually being able to apply it.
Even in mildly complex systems, any outcome is the wrong thing to target, with the process being where the focus should be.
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Re: teaching softness to people who think they are soft alre

Postby yeniseri » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:05 pm

Other than the basic postural considerations "harder conditioning" is the preferred method to grasp essentials. The experts of yore were people of the street or the countryside, and they did physical labour so it would behove one to actually do more physical "jibengong" through drills, lifting objects of some weight based programme (weightlifting would be excessive) along with the prerequisite regimen.
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Re: teaching softness to people who think they are soft alre

Postby caesar » Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:39 am

Hi chh,

how is it going? Have you made progress related to this topic and your question? Just interested. :)

I had a long break from TCC, but started again recently, and very happy about it. Love it.
A question roams my mind...while many say that true softness through TCC practice can only be learned when treated and trained as a martial art...but same time many say that Qi Gong drills are excellent for a person to heal and learn to be softer...

Then why don't schools and teachers state something like: "Welcome to learn taiji...but remember that then you'll be challenged to learn self defence. If not interested, then you are most welcome to our Qi Gong classes where you get excellent health benefits as well!"
What are your thoughts on this?

I don't mean to sound arrogant, and said this because I've noticed that there's lots of angry debate always around this issue, although not suggesting this topic. :)

Cheers.
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Re: teaching softness to people who think they are soft alre

Postby chh » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:19 pm

Wow, I completely missed your reply when you wrote it, caesar :( Thanks for what you wrote.

Looking back, this thread has a bunch of useful stuff in it.

Your not arrogant seeming question makes me wonder, too.
Just because taiji and stationary qigong complement each other in so many ways doesn't mean that it's a mistake to be doing only one- that makes a lot of sense to me.

The thing that was giving me trouble was that I was getting a stiff, jerky, almost aggressive vibe in partner exercises specifically with the people who talked about not wanting to do anything martial, which seemed like a contradiction. Maybe it's not, and they were being tense and jerky precisely because they were nervous or something. (I didn't make them do it, I swear! I was assisting in the class.) But I think it's more that they weren't treating the exercises as chances to use outside pressure to work on their taiji, they just saw them as a conflict.

Anyway, the people who were interested in the martial side tended to acquire softness to a higher degree, and I wanted to see the same level in everyone so their solo practice would benefit too.

I wonder whether more or different qigong practice could get people there without doing partner stuff...
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Re: teaching softness to people who think they are soft alre

Postby caesar » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:24 am

Oh damn...I wrote quite a lot and pressed "Preview", found myself logged out with a blank page to write on. I'll do it again but more short.

Hi chh, nice to hear from you, and no worries about "the delay"! :)

The thing that was giving me trouble was that I was getting a stiff, jerky, almost aggressive vibe in partner exercises specifically with the people who talked about not wanting to do anything martial, which seemed like a contradiction.


I understand your trouble. Many come to learn taichichuan, want to be fluid and soft, don't want to do anything martial from which their solo exercise would benefit, they do not see the connection, wondering why is it that their form isn't improving enough, still wanting to stay away from the martial, getting a bit frustrated because not getting a clear feeling of progress related to relaxation: frustration --> more tension.

Oh the parody...

And the martial side? Learn softness through contact, being in touch with one another, learn through feeling, learn empathy, observe your emotions and learn from them...all leading to be more gentle, also in form work. This is the way I see it, but hard to make somebody realize this without having own first hand experience.

All the best!
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Re: teaching softness to people who think they are soft alre

Postby chh » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:00 pm

"Learn softness through contact, being in touch with one another, learn through feeling, learn empathy, observe your emotions and learn from them...all leading to be more gentle, also in form work."

That's a great way to put it. Thanks!
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