Erle Montaigue and some articles and the state of Taiji.

[Shen Zhao Pai]

I'm an internal martial arts instructor holder with Erle's World Taiji Boxing Association and a life member of the Australian Therapeutic Movement Association. I also do White Crane and find Erle's teaching has helped with my understanding of the martial arts. Love or hate him, one has to admit that he has made a contribution towards promoting the art of Taiji.

[TenTigers]

not to burst anyone's bubble, but you are deluding yourself if you think you can learn anything more than forms,possibly incorrect at that, from a book. There are things that cannot be conveyed in a book or video. They must be felt. You cannot expect to learn touch sensitivity, or specific gings (jings) from watching. You must "steal your Sifu's hands" meaning, you need to constantly feel his touch and eventually replicate it within yourself. Real Gung-Fu, can only be taught through direct transmission. This will always be the problem with teaching to the public in large classes, rather than one on one.

as far as Dong Hai Chuen, Chang Seng-Feng,Yueh Fei, etc, all these men were accomplished martial artists who were not "born out of a mountain" they all learned from someone. They may have developed their concepts through their own experimentation and inspiration, but they did not start as rank beginners. General Jiang had a direct influence on Tai Chi's development as well.

[changtuz]

So in short you are saying...What the hell i can't learn this stuff from a book or video so maybe i should sit down grab a bag of chips and watch the tub. I think that sums it up well. More or less your nothing more then a gun slinger by that i mean you wont offer any help but instead shoot them down. Some people live too far or can't pay so books and videos are the next best thing.

On another note i think everyone here knows that a Teacher is always better then a book or video, but only if this teacher is the real deal which is something you dont find that often.

[TenTigers]

no, I'm not shooting you down. you can learn a heckuva lot from books and videos. But there are specific nuances that you will never get, or even comprehend for that matter. When I say that you won't comprehend it, it isn't meant as a put down, but until you actually feel certain things, you will really be clueless. I am speaking of higher level techniques. Sticking, listening, shock power,minute cheanges in energy, cannot be conveyed. They write volumes on it, yet until you've actually felt it, they are all meaningless. Just as Bodhidharma said of the sutras, they only serve to clean up messes.
Also, angles cannot be shown in videos. I have seen people who learned from videos and their form is...askew. This also means that their structure is off, and then their alignment is incorrect, so what are we left with?
That being said,if you know the yang short form, then you could probably pick up the long form from a book or video. If you know one version of Bot Gua, you might be able to pick up another variation. But if you know Shorin Ryu, and try to learn Liu Ho Ba Fa, you are from Fantasy Island.
Sorry if yo felt shot down. martial Arts is not something that you can read about, or watch on TV and then say,"Yep...I KNOW it"You don't take martial arts. You are a martial artist. It becomes woven into the very fabric of your being.
It is not for dabblers. You do not merely involve yourself in martial arts, you commit yourself. It's like ham and eggs. The chicken was involved in the process. The pig was committed!

[changtuz]

Nice... i like how you put it. nothing more then the truth.

BTW nice to meet you. Hope we dident get off on a bad start.
someone once told me i sound angry when i write or rude not sure which one.

[TenTigers]

no problemo-nice to meet you too.
I try not to offend...most times.....depending on my mood
Sometimes it's hard to convey a thought-especially something you are passionate about, without pulling punches. Also, if someone can be helped from going off in a wrong direction, then sometimes certain things need to be said, and you would do no help by sheltering them from the truth, no matter how much it might upset them.
Martial Arts is a wonderful experience. But it also attracts people who are ...um,..wannabes. I meet so many people who go through all the motions of training Martial Arts, without actually doing it for real. many of these people are either at McDojos.McKwoons, or self-taught. I think the self-taught are the worst because they actually think they have a clue, and will speak as if they are experts. There are also self-taught who are totally humble. They are either in an area devoid of good instruction, or completely lack the funds for instruction. they are getting by with whatever they have. Bravo for their efforts. If they are in or near the inner city, they might venture to the youth centers. I did just that. I was the only white kid in a class being taught by black muslims. In Chinatowns, there are parks, where if you go early in the mornings, you will find people who will share. Most colleges have a Martial Arts class, and there are adult education classes as well. Where there's a will...

[SunTzu]

All I want to say about this is that one's progression and the quality of what is learned depends on several other factors then just having a good teacher. If someone has good knowledge of ..

1> mathmetics
2> physics
3> biology (emphasis on anatomy and the human body)
4> languages (to understand theory)

and scores good in fields like, creativity, personal body mechanics and intelligence.

.. then I would say that person has a lot going for them and the understanding of the theory and practice will be multiplied.

For example, correct structure and posture can be understood without too much of a problem by someone without a teacher but with a wide knowledge of the human anatomy and the systems of the human body as learned in college/university.

I also agree to the statement "it's better to learn from books/dvds than having a teacher who couldn't tell light from dark", although it would be a great advantage to have a qualified teacher. But again when these people are not available it's probably better to go to a seminar once in a while. It's hard to learn skills, but it's harder to unlearn bad skills. This goes for both learning with a moderate/wannabe sifu, and self learning.

[sarcasm]Another thing, most students (I know) don't bother to read up on other people's books etc. for the mere fact that this teacher will elevate them to heaven and bliss ie. they're bloody lazy and that is the teacher's job. They just come to practice and expect to be a master in a number of years.[/sarcasm]

[jfraser]

Well,
You use what comes out, and that is not predictable. No time to think what forms to choose. Step training is also important, practicing 22 1/2 and 45 degree stepping patterns, and others. and after some time of practice, they will automatically blend with your hand and body movements when you need them. I still keep and practice several very practical step patterns from Serak Silat. They work! And lately the unusual step patterns and stances of Yang Xiao Jia are becoming very fascinating to me, as there is much that is actually leg trapping, so that when you apply Peng, Li, Gi or Ahn to an opponent, your leg has slipped behind one of his legs, deftly. Look at WHAT JUST HAPPEN HERE, A NASTY FALL IS IN THE MAKING. and it is not the kind that you can step out of, or roll out of easily.

I had the honor of meeting and chatting with a Zirmen Quan Master. He said that forms are not all that necessary, and they were taught to students to teach "stability", He recommends picking a few moments you feel drawn to, and really work them until they are part of you, and will emerge as you need then. I work an elbow set i made up, because I like elbow techniques, and because I have very long arms , so elbows come out fast, with 230 pounds behind the elbows.

Some of what has emerged at different times are methods that I trained years ago. I say to myself, "wow, where did that come from???", then I remember where it came from.

James

[Dvivid]

Well,
You use what comes out, and that is not predictable.

What comes out is whatever you've really trained.

Forms are linked techniques. Each technique has an application, or several. So if you're properly practicing forms/sequences and the applications of each technique within, with martial intent and sense of enemy, the appropriate practical technique should "come out".

[jfraser]

Dvivid'
I understand what you are saying. My experience is that I have responded appropriately, but my "mind" did not decide what technique to use. I was surprised what emerged, it all happened without conscious decisions. After the fact, I could look back and see what came out was the result of my practice and
training, especially the stepping and angling patterns.

James

[jfraser]

I learned and practiced Shorin Ryu for about 13 years. And you might find this hard to believe, but I learned and practiced Liuhebafaquan for about 4 years.

James

[angryboy]

jfaser have you got any real skills for this time? You must be very proficient?! You have trained very much time?

[jfraser]

Thank you for your articles by EM on Taiji. Unfortuantely, I am unable to open any of them. They sound interesting. I will give his Web site a try later.

Personally, I don't have much interest in Yang, Cheng Fu's TJQ or the decendants of it I have trained in or seen. Much has been simplified, diluted or totally left out of these sets/systems. I say that from experience "on both sides of the tracks".

To use "brush knee, twist set, as an example, in the set I practice, it is much more complex and detailed than in the diluted and simplified Yang TJQ systems I have with which I have any experience, in the past.

I the Xiao jia system I study, there is a retraction and lifting of the front leg to a 22 2/2 degree as the rear leg, most often steps back at this same angle, thus getting off line, and as the defending knee is lifted and at the same time the same side arm swept down in front of this lifted leg, and makes an inward to outward circle in front of the body coverring the whole torso. Then this arm hand decends down the rear side of the body and sweeps in front of the rear knee and then the front knee, as the retracted led slips in to trap the opponents leg, the body turns inward, and the other arm extends with a palm (knife edge hand) stike to the opponents chest.

There are many movements in this set that I have never seen in any other set, and it is very complex and takes 40 minutes to do this set.

Thank you.

[Partez]

My teacher always says that he is not there to teach just to remind us of what we already know. It's probably not as good, but a good video from a good instructor can substitute a real life instructor in the teachings as long as you pay attention and correct yourself

Whats more important I think that is provided in a dojo is motivation to push yourself and a partner to train with

As for Earl, I just have a bad vibe from him, I have no idea about his teachings but just from watching some of the video on youtube I wouldn't want to learn from him. My mind might change tho and I don't have a specific reason for this

[jfraser]

I began martial arts training in 1961, in a Judo class at my hometown YMCA, which I stayed with for about 3 years, including having the honor to train with the renound Shachio Asita, Sensei, then a Ph.D student at the University of Nebraska. He was Samurai and very traditional, and was trained to be a Kamakazi pilot in WW II, but his number did not come up before the end of WWII. I have 12 years training in Shorin-ji Ryu Karate, over 10 years in Bujinkan Ninjitsu, about 8 years in Lan Shou Quan, about 7 years total in Chen and Yang Tai Chi Quan, 3 years Chung Do Kwan Taekwondo, and 4 years Liuhebafa Quan. And there is about 3 years training in Sayoc Kali (inteligent and lethal knife useage and disarming), 3 years Capoeria Regional, a number of very physically demanding 5 day workshop headed by Hidaka Nishiyama, and several other high level JKA instructors from the JKA headquarters in Japan. These were held at the gym at UC San Diego, and open only to JKA members and their affiliates. Also I have 2 years Serak Serak Silat. In addition I have under a years exposure to Pakua, Xin Yi Quan, Wing Tsun, and Southern Shaolin.

In july, 2006 was very fortunate to come across Yang TJQ Xiaojia (small frame) in a park here in Shenyang, China. The teachers name is Han Yilong, Shirfu. He took me as an indoor student, and says he will give me the whole system next year. He has laying a base for this training for the last 18 months. His only other regular student is his wife, besides me. That is because the set and other training is very difficult and complex

Regarding your question about practical skills, who knows. I know, if I need to use skills, something will come out and I know not what.

I hope I answered your questions.

Best regards,

[neutralino]

I think learning from a book when instruction is unavailable, even if one is a beginner, is okay. I think the main problem with this way of learning is that the beginning student is too eager to learn new material and advance. As has been mentioned, books contain a great deal of knowledge yet no way of preventing someone from trying to learn more advanced techniques before they are ready.

While I have been reading books on qigong, tai chi, and other internal arts for a handful of years, I have only recently found myself in a position in which I am mature enough to truly start the training process. As of right now I am unable study under a teacher, however I pick a few beginner's sets and practice those and only those for a few months at a time before considering other exercises. I think it would be difficult to try and learn a style without a teacher, especially when it comes to martial applications (how do you practice? you have nobody to practice with). I am unsure as to whether or not it is impossible, and it almost surely depends on the person. No matter what, though, you need someone to practice with. How do you know if the martial applications even work if you've never tried them on an actual person?

Training is like trying to create an ocean one drop at a time. I think most self-learners try to advance much too fast and thus quickly fail. These people need to understand that a few pages out of a book are all you need for months at a time.

[Syd]

G'day all,

My first post at this forum and interesting to see my teachers name come up here. I have been training within Erle's system for about 8 years and have much to thank him for in both training and health respects. When I started Taijiquan I was acutely aware that I wanted to find a teacher who taught a complete curriculum and addressed Taiji as a Martial Art - Erle is one the few out there besides Dr Yang who to my mind successfully achieve this. It's great to see Erle get his due here also, which he deserves. He may not be conventional in his appearance but the lesson here is truly Taoist since looks aren't everything ... content is.

I look forward to meeting and making friends with other stylists here.

Regards.

[lilman]

Yea, some of the movements I seen on some of Erle's videos my teacher teaches but you never see on anyone else's forms, including Dr. Yangs. My teacher refers to them as "secrets"of the forms that traditional Martial Artists decide to hide from thier students, such as a hit to the groin after wardoff, in the form of holding the ball, Just in case it fails... I never seen it in Dr. Yang's videos niether.

[Syd]

Lilman,

You are correct about Erle with regards to secrets. Something great about Erle is that he holds nothing back and keeps nothing hidden from students, this is something that put many noses out of joint years ago and is the main reason for past controversy since he did not suffer fools and spoke his mind whilst simultaneously exposing much hidden knowledge ... point striking for one. Erle is of the opinion that no harm can come from revealing high end secrets within forms and applications since this information will be useless to a student who has not yet attained that level internally anyway ... apart from that it points the way to sincere students as to what they ought to be aiming for along the path.

Erle was a student of Chu King Hung during his time in London and was also involved with teaching classes with Chu during that period. Erle got his Yang Cheng Fu from Chu who was a student of Yang Sau Chung. Erle later went to Hong Kong and met with Yang Sau Chung for correction of his form. So we can deduce from this that Erle's YCF form is directly from the Yang lineage.

With regards to his Old Yang Style he got this from another Chinese teacher who he met in Sydney Australia called Chang Yiu Chun who was a student of Yang Shao Hou. Chang not only taught Erle his Old Yang set but also the first of three of 12 Wudang Qi Disruption forms amongst many other techniques involving point striking. Later in the 90's Erle returned to Wudang Shan to train with a Master who taught the remaining 9 Qi Disruption forms.

It might be interesting for people to read this Research in China article by Paul Brecher where he performs Erle's Old Yang set before many well respected practitioners as well as Yang Zheng Guo - read the article to see what he and others had to say.

http://www.taiji.net/research.html

Best regards to all, S.

[Yatish Parmar]

If you put these "secret" moves into the sequence, are you not limiting yourself somewhat?

To me the beauty of the taiji sequence is in breaking down postures and finding options. By putting the shape of one in to the sequence removes the possibility of others no?