Erle Montaigue and some articles and the state of Taiji.

[lilman]

No, becuase the form is still the same, just with the "secret" moves tagged on. for example, you do wardoff like you normally do, the only difference is you go from wardoff to hold the ball before roll back, which is a groin strike if they defend against wardoff for example. So it doesnt limit it, it expands it. A lot of teachers laugh if they see that done, Its because they know it, but are not willing to share the knowledge...

[lilman]

Another example from the 24 movment form is fan through back. We lift our leg at the beginning and add a punch at the end. The same movement is used, just slight differences to add an advantage. The knee can be used as a kick, a block, or distract the opponents attention downwards before the follow through. Then if the opponent stops your attack, theres a downward punch to the dantian or groin, or a bump to knock them off balance. If anything it adds a huge advantage. You even have more movements to disect and think about.

[Syd]

If you put these "secret" moves into the sequence, are you not limiting yourself somewhat?

You seem to have things backwards, the secret moves are in reality NOT so secret and they belong in the sequence, it's not as though they never belonged there in the first place. Sadly what has happened over time is that the original long sequence has been changed and watered down and the sequence has had postures removed! The original Yang Cheng Fu form is supposed to be 108 and you can read articles as to why shortened sequences should not be practiced.

How do you come to the conclusion that learning ALL of the original sequence is limiting? The complete opposite would be limiting - robbing students of the original sequence, less postures in the form would be limiting if anything, not the other way around. There was a very good reason why the forms were created in the sequence, length and repetition of moves for both healing and combat effectiveness. Sadly it was during the Cultural Revolution when much of these forms were altered and shortened in order to simplify Taiji for the masses and standardize for the sake of the Party. This was not a natural progression but rather a political one.

To me the beauty of the taiji sequence is in breaking down postures and finding options. By putting the shape of one in to the sequence removes the possibility of others no?

Maybe you don't understand the history correctly ... the so-called secret moves are the original moves that are supposed to be in the form - this is what many teachers either do not know or choose not to teach - the former is more common. When I talk about secret moves I am talking about the hidden applications rather than the moves since I perform Yang style 108 with ALL the postures that belong in the form - everything in the form was put there for a reason. If you practice a form that was shortened, altered and chopped up and has many of these moves missing it is you who is limiting yourself.

It would be ironic for somebody performing the 24 ( Official Government Standardized set ) to see somebody performing the original 108 and admonish them for having all these extra moves as though they didn't belong there. It's like somebody who had their arms taken from them telling somebody with arms that they aren't supposed to have arms.

[Yatish Parmar]

Apologies, I was eating my breakfast while I posted last time so I was being brief.

You seem to have things backwards, the secret moves are in reality NOT so secret and they belong in the sequence, it's not as though they never belonged there in the first place.

I should clarify that I see forms in a sequence not as fixed techniques, but shapes with the possibilities of several levels of application within them.

Wave hands like clouds (for example) contains many different techniques. One of them (for example) is to neutralise grasp the sparrow's tail. Now if I know this one application and each time I do the sequence I am doing it this one way, am I not locking the sequence down into one now not so secret application? Are not all the other applications that are possible now secret because they are no longer in the sequence?

Raise hands to the up posture contains a pretty nasty chin-na. In order to do this chin-na the circle that the lead hand creates must be continued and brought back down to the wasit for a headlock. If I do this technique each time I do the form am I not locking out the other 7 or 8 techniques that (I at least with my limited knowledge know of) are in raise hands to the up posture?

Each time I do each form in the sequence it doesn't look *exactly* the same because I am imagining my opponent to be neutralising my previous attack differently and am therefore following and adjusting with different techniques. I restate, the sequence is not fixed but contains possibility. It is Taijiquan. Taiji is thought and thought is possibility, the sequence and the forms it contains are expressions of that.

And as to the original form. Please, show me the original form. We don't know where Taijiquan *actually* came from. We don't know what the *original* form looked like. Every person that does any *standard* sequence will do it differently, will find different things. Any good martial artist will find their sequence changes over time as their understand goes deeper. Any good teacher will pass on their greater knowledge and their changed sequences.

I am not denying that the Yang style long sequence (whatever that was) hasn't been changed.

*rude commentary deleted... now on to the conclusion*

Everybody has a right to knowledge. I am a teacher and I fundamentally believe in that. However, There is a difference between knowledge and understanding. If the ish was right there in our faces there would nothing to what we do, there would be no deeper meaning, there would be no effort, no route to enlightenment, the art would not be an art, it'd be a simple statement.

The very fact that the sequence and supporting exercises contain the lexicon is enough. How often have you been hit by realisation, a veritable epiphany, and suddenly felt like a prick because the thing you have just realised was not a huge secret hidden in the lore of bygone eras, but right there in your face. It happens to me on a regular basis, and I feel more the fool for not being able to see what the old masters had put in there for me as plain as day.

[Syd]

Yatish,

If you are happy in your practice then good for you, let no person tell you otherwise. I should clarify now for my own part what I am talking about. When I talk about the original form 108 from Yang Cheng Fu that is indeed the form that Yang Cheng Fu created and he was an exceptional Taijiquan practitioner who had the inside track on the Yang Family Style. The form that I personally practice is indeed the exact form from Yang Cheng Fu unchanged as my teacher was a student of Chu King Hung who was a direct student of Yang Sau Chung ... my teacher also had his form corrected by Yang Sau Chung personally so I verify to you without equivocation that it is original, intact and correct. Now that my bonifide's are out of the way ...

I say this not for any other reason other than to substantiate my previous statement about the "original form" of Yang Cheng Fu to which I was referring which you questioned. Yes we could now play at sophistry and argue that his form was different from his Grandfathers form ... yes it was and he changed it for a reason. I would add however that he was well placed to do so and to ensure that contained within his form was still all the mechanics and secret applications hidden in plain view to those who have eyes to see it.

Having said this I do not believe that most Taijiquan practitioners have ever achieved a high enough level of understanding of Taijiquan as an art to warrant it's alteration by themselves ... Yang Cheng Fu was in a class of his own and did so because he had the requisite skill and understanding. When looking at the forms themselves there are any number of applications that can be derived from the various postures and these are like water in terms of their endless continuity for those with skill to apply and understand them. However, each posture within the form holds a lexicon of such moves and it is up to the student or practitioner to learn them and learn how to apply them. Saying that the performance of a posture one way rules out all other possible applications is pretty short sighted from where I stand ... the postures are a suggestion of what is possible and are only fixed within the form work as a KEY to the tabula rasa of what lies within.

Taking each posture as one off literal application is a fatal error and misses the point entirely ... but there are indeed reasons for the postures in the forms from a health and meridian activation aspect and that is the bigger reason the forms are performed the way they are ... this is the genius of those that developed and created Yang Style Taijiquan and what came before it. If you ignore one aspect you have removed the foundation of half your house ... this is why correct understanding of the forms and their inherent meaning is paramount ... even more-so why the forms themselves ought not to be altered and shortened by those who have not proven to be of equal skill to those who created Taijiquan in the first place.

Finally ... the applications of the forms even in practice are not supposed to be taken literally as fixed reactions and techniques ... they are again a means to an end and a key, a method, for the Taiji practitioner to finally react instinctively and with no technique and no mind ... techniques are just frames for something far more profound inside them. We are not that far apart in our view of the form generally but I hold to my assertion regarding the performance of the form and it's sequence for reasons far more profound than martial application.

EDIT - Upon reading back over your last comments and my own it would appear that we might be at cross purposes and are on totally different trajectories altogether. You seem to be talking about minor differences and subtle mechanical shifts in the performance of the form - this I have no issue with and nobody performs their Taiji EXACTLY the same way each time ... of course not. But the classics and works of Douglas Wile through the Yang Family Transmissions show very clearly how Taijiquan is to be performed and rules which govern the correct practice ... they are plain as day.

What I am talking about however is versions of Yang Style that were deliberately changed and shortened during the Cultural revolution and that have many traditional Long Form movements totally missing altogether ... then I was talking about the many hidden martial applications of those postures that many people, teachers included, have absolutely no knowledge of because they are practicing only half an art. Apart from this fact we seem to be largely on the same page.

[lilman]

Hmmmm... It seems something as simple as a differernt form in Taijiquan can create an argument... My teacher is actually teaching me 14 different hand forms, which include 3 xingyi forms, so thats 11 taijiquan forms. Hes teaching all 5 styles, Yang, Chen, Wu, Wu-Hao and Sun. Hes also teaching one Wudang form, the 13 movement form. The reason hes doing that, is to show there is no difference in "style", its all based on the same principles.

What else hes teaching us is the movements that were supposedly left out of some of these forms. I originally learned the 24 movement Yang form from a YMAA DVD. When I showed my teacher he was confused. I showed him the book related to the DVD and he happened to know Shou Yu Liang. He commented that that was a wushu (what my teacher means by wushu is it was watered down and changed by the government for looks alone, not practicality) form and it was simplified mostly for health, yet it does have martial applications, but it is not the complete Traditional form. Then he showed me his version. I was able to catch on quickly, but I definately felt the form was more complete, and it makes you feel the energy more than the simplified form. It also works your legs more. He also showed me the "secret" movements of the form, and the internal secrets, which some teachers never teach. Also correct posture as to not be moved, which was completely ignored in the DVD. Have either of you learned the how the unbendable arm is applied and defended agianst in Taiji?

The reason Im mentioning all this is either way, the Yang basic 37 postures has over 240 applications, with the additional steps, theres more, but regardless what form you practice, your improving your health and learning Taiji as a martial art.

What doesnt seem to reflect in any of the books I read, with what my current teacher teaches, is he describes Taiji as "dirty fighting". It definately reflects in the Yang forms he teaches and the Traditional Chen style applications with how I understand them. You distract the opponent high and hit them low, and vica versa. An essence which seems to have disappeared in the more popular, modern forms. Which is why I read somewhere that Dr. Yang's Taiji is "almost" like Yang Ban Hou's, but not exactly. Maybe he was never taught those movements, or maybe he chose not to reveal them, I dont know... If a form was "watered down" or changed, it was because of a reason. Maybe the teacher/teacher's teacher had a bad experience, or felt that they did not want to teach the "dirty" aspects of the art. Or maybe they felt those movements were not necessary for health purposes... Either way, forms are always changing. We cant expect everyond to know the same Taiji, and I feel we do have an advantage knowing these applications against someone else who practices other varieties of Taiji.

Also, just to put it out there, my teacher taught me one thing Ive never heard before anywhere else. "Practice Taiji as a martial art first. After you master it as a martial art, it becomes moving meditation". When you do the forms, just relaxe, keep your eyes up, body alignment correct, and you will feel a good Qi flow. When you push, wardoff etc, focus on it being a push, wardoff, etc, and you will build the Qi. Theres no point in imagining an opponent, and practicing applications when doing the form. If you do, how can you keep a clear mind? The form is to build Qi. Thats how you do it. You should not pull the pinky back on the hand like Dr Yang explains in the books, unless your fighting. Qi will escape your palms. Cup your hands slightly so the point is sealed, and it will circulate back. Until you need applications, dont use the hand forms. The applications should be practiced with a partner, repetitively until they come naturally. And as long as your aware of the applications, and keep a clear mind, they will come.

Also there is no point in arguing about whos form is original, that also doesnt matter, and is impossible to prove. Many masters who claim to teach the original form have changed it or hid secrets so their students couldnt beat them. Even if the teacher hid minimal information, the students would always feel inferior. I could tell you 5 different versions on how taiji was originated and where it came from, so theres NO possible way to say anyone has the original taijiquan. Who knows, we could be all completely off base. Even the Theory behind Taiji is obviously in question by some Chen Stylists, while some agree the I Ching and Daoist principles are present.

The purpose of me posting any of this or even being in this conversation is not to argue. I do not think any of us on here should be arguing. This forum is to learn. Whether your a teacher, a master or just a student, none of us know everything. And its easy to misinterpret a meaning when its written, moreso because its not spoken and doesnt have feeling. So please, do not continue this discussion as an arguement, but lets all learn from eachothers experiences...

[Syd]

Lilman,

I agree with much of what you have said and I completely concur with your teachers assessment that the form is for the cultivation of Qi and not for the practical purpose of imagining an opponent. This is however why the form can be practiced more than once at each visit so that we can perform it several ways ... the first the mind, the second for the spirit and the last for the body ie fast with an opponent in mind. Overall though I agree that the form itself is for health and Qi cultivation and meridian activation and that the postures and their applications should be practiced with a partner as a separate affair.

As to the general spirit of the discussion I feel that there has be no argument thus far, not from me anyway and if anybody has thought otherwise then by all means let me assure you it's not the case - I feel in excellent company in this academic exercise and enjoy all comments regarding our art.

Best to all.

[lilman]

Im happy to here that syd, its just this phrase that got my attention,

*rude commentary deleted... now on to the conclusion*

If your not arguing then great. But this whole conversation is a matter of comparisons. If you 2 do not meet eachother in person and show the differences in your forms and applications, there is no way you will both have a complete mutual understanding. These additional movements blew my mind cuz they are not mainstream Taiji. Even Dr. Yang who put out books and dvds on "Traditional" Taijiquan doesnt perform them in his form, so we have to understand and accept the mainstream for what it is. Its like telling someone the sky is blue when they've been locked in a box their whole life and never seen outside. It may be, but how do they know what your telling them is true? And how do we know mainstream is not the truth and someone after Yang Lu Chan added these movements?... We dont...

Now I would love to hear Dr. Yang's position on these "extra" movements in the form. I respect and admire Dr. Yang greatly, hes doing some AMAZING things, and I hope to be able to do what hes doing one day, but from some people I spoke with who are not YMAA students, and past personal expereinces with questions (ie, my fa jing question, which I had to learn by experience cuz I still havent found it in the book and had a poor teacher...), I feel if the questions were asked to him, he would just refer us to one of his books, or maybe even someone elese's books/videos, which really does concern me. The reason I would like his opinion is hes teaching his traditional taijiquan, but those "extra" movements really do give a sense of completion to taijiquan. They also give a sense of completion and continuation to the applications. They are your self defense if your movements get defended against. for example:

You pull the opponent down with needle at bottom of the sea, they pull thier arm back against your pull, so you try fan through back, what if the opponent steps back and grabs your pushing arm? Your moving forward hes moving back, and hes in control. The additional movements say lean forward and punch lower dantian or step and bump with thier step, hurting the opponent, going with the flow, and putting YOU back in control. If you follow Dr. Yang's form, the next move is Turn, twist body and circle fist, or white snake spits poison. You could technically turn your wrist, turn around and kinda rollback with one hand, pushing the opponent to your side, but their stepping back, so you would have to compete with their force and body wieght that way, which is not true Taijiquan. I understand theres other applications you can do from the form at that point, and other variations that could apply or be analyzed but Im trying to relay the completeness that you feel when doing Taiji with the extra movements not necessarily in applications, but just practicing the form... I guess you could say, its more like real fighting...

The only reason I could see them being removed, is if the teacher didnt want students/onlookers to be able to defend themselves against thier Taiji... hmmmm.... Food for thought... Not accusing Dr. Yang personally of doing that... But maybe further down the road, it happened?... IF those extra movements really are the original movements.

I also agree with what you say about the form being trained more than once and fast. The reason I bring that up here, is some of Dr. Yang's Taiji books can be misleading without a teacher. He states whenever you do the Taiji form, imagine an opponent, also basically practice it with all your concentration, immerse yourself in the Taiji, and he states do the form 3 times, once as a warmup, once for Qi circulation, and once to cooldown. Thats as far as he goes into depth. To me, and any beginner without a good competent teacher, that would mean, do the form nonchelantly (for lack of a better word) once while imagining being attacked by an opponent, Concentrate and lead the Qi while being attacked by an opponent, then again do the form slower and imagine being attacked by an opponent. If you concentrate on being attacked by an opponent everytime, your imagination is taking up your concentration, when it should just be on developing Qi.

How I believe it should be done is; The first form should be relaxed and concentrated, focussing on building Qi. The second form should be relaxed and concentrated Focusing on leading Qi, the 3rd should be relaxed and concentrated focusing on building more Qi. Then you should do Fast Taiji imagining an opponent. And thats if you only decide your gonna do the form at least 3 times a day. If you wanna do more, I believe the main focus should be building Qi. Martial applications come separately, and can be practiced before or after the forms on thier own, with a real or imaginary opponent. I prefer real but sometimes imaginary is all you have. And the form should not be practiced focusing on building and leading Qi until the applications are understood, so you focus and lead Qi the right way for the basic applications. I also believe if your writing books to teach people, you dont know the people whos reading the books background, some people dont understand things the same levels as others, so EVERYTHING should be dumbed down to the lowest level so everyone can grasp the meaning, even if were assuming they have a teacher to ask. I had a teacher, but he couldnt answer 1/2 my questions properly that my new teacher can. Not saying anything bad about Dr. Yang's books. I still learn a lot from them. Just some constructive criticism, cuz its harder for beginners to grasp some things.

Another thing that concerns me, that I would like to ask about, Dr Yang never mentions in any of his Taiji books the unbendable arm. He also never mentions that you should never look down in Taiji unless your hitting at a downward angle. I dont know if he dont teach/know those secrets, but he does say it is important that masters reveal ALL their knowledge. He does say that your eyes follow your movement, however your eyes focus the Qi, your mind LEADS the Qi. If you look down at any time, your Qi will sink there, and you will be easily uprooted. You should look at about the opponents eye level, not focusing on any one thing, and see your target in your peripheral vision, focusing your yi on the target, while keeping your eye level high. it will raise your spirit, and in my experience, make your Qi more effective.

My teacher showed me, and had me sink into a 60% on rear leg 40%on front leg posture and look down at his chest. he pushed me back and up, and I moved, then, in the same posture, he had me look at his 3rd eye point and do the same, he couldnt move me. Also its important to have your toes point in the same direction, not at angles to each other. It will make it harder to uproot you. If anyone wants to learn about the unbendable arm, and how to counter it, I can post it on here, you can learn it in less than 5 minutes if you have a partner. I will not post it unless someone requests me to, cuz I dont want to waist time typing it if no one is interested. It helps defend against Qinna and can be used in any self defense situation. It is as much a part of Taiji as it is Aikido where it is made famous. Dr. Yang said that the art is slowly being lost, this is part of the art thats missing to most people, and I believe if he knows it, he should have included it in Tai Chi Chuan Martial Applications. So should have sinking with an incoming force and the technique I mentioned about the eyes... The reason the art is being lost is teachers are trying to protect themselves by not releasing this knowledge, well this knowledge is important to mastery and should be released to those willing to learn so the art doesnt die out. And to what Ive seen with my experience, the art is growing to phenominal proportions, but it has a contagous terminal cancer that gets worse with each following generation... Knowledge is power my friends, and this is the place we should be sharing secrets. More masters and students should be sharing the available knowledge so we can all learn and grow, and the art does not die.

[Syd]

Lilman,

Thanks for your exposition there ... with regards to modern teachers and what they teach I honestly believe it is more an issue of they just don't know the broader curriculum because they were only ever really taught the standardized government Tai Chi. The Chinese government standardized Taijiquan because they were suspicious of Martial Arts believing good Martial Artists posed a threat to the Government ... in order to save and preserve Taijiquan it was peddled to the "masses" as a health exercise or sport rather than a functional martial art which extrapolates to Wushu basically.

Tai Chi as opposed to Taijiquan ( I make this distinction for a reason ) has sadly become like broken DNA over successive generations ... with each generation it gets more broken and less complete until it is only a shadow of it's former self. People need to go back and read the classics and Yang family transmissions to find that Taijiquan was a brutal and deadly martial art - it used sophisticated principles that were very difficult to master but people over time have confused the sophisticated principles and the philosophy that underpins the art with what the art should be! The art of Taijiquan in combat is a brutal affair using subtle principles ... it is not about pulling or pushing people off balance or pushing hands. It is about destroying your opponents limbs, sinews, internal organs, bones as well as striking at accupoints! The classics state this clearly.

Taijiquan as a complete martial art is a jewel in the crown of all Martial Arts in that the Health and Healing Qigong are built into the framework of the entire machine itself ... the people that devised this art were genius as far as I''m concerned but most of the modern world has grown up on Chinese Government Standardized Tai Chi that has had all it's fangs and claws removed ... a toothless tiger is what most people have in Tai Chi - half an art, not the complete art. We cannot be angry with people who do not teach a complete art or practice a complete art when they themselves were never taught the complete art or shown what it is supposed to be. What we can do however is try to educate and point people towards the information that reveals the true nature of Taijiquan as a Martial Art and not just a healing art and health exercise.

As to the issue of forms and extra movements ... as I said earlier the individual postures are not supposed to be taken literally as fixed fighting applications ... this becomes a technique and when you get locked into techniques you are static and limited in your options. The goal is to process the body mechanics of the applications and then allow them to flow instinctively using many other principles within the fighting curriculum - Lung Har Chuan and the folding principle/peng etc. It's a means to getting you to the point of no mind, no technique.

[lilman]

Right, definately agree with all you just said, accept to add that uprooting and pulling off balance are part of Taijiquan, just a smaller part than what is emphasized today... It is not the complete emphasis of the art. But trying to educate people with such few sources is hard.

When I first started Taiji at a wushu school, I liked looking for as many sources I could find towards the original. I noticed Erle posted things like Dim mak videos on youtube. I tried to watch some of Erle's videos on youtube, and they got kinda frustrating to me. He talks about a lot of different things, and demonstrates one or 2 techniques, maybe reveals a secret, then thats it... Which is probably why he posts like 2000 videos, but it makes it hard to learn or reference anything. I think he uses that sight more as a markteting tool to sell DVDs, even though he does still give a lot of info other teachers never would. Are there any other sources to reference what he teaches, or any place you could reference someone for free info you may know of?

My teacher is very low key. He runs a temple and does not wish to broadcast things such as videos, books etc. So there is no references. When ever I decide to do homework and look up a form on youtube or something, certain movements are taken out, and/or performed very differently than what he shows me. So far Ive learned the 24 yang, 37 Yang, working on the 38 Chen, then hes going to teach the 42 mixxed competition form, then the 52 Chen. Then 3 Xingyi forms, weapons forms, then on to the Wudang 13 movement form, Wu, Wu Hao, Sun, 108 Yang, and first and 2nd Lu Chen. I dont know which 108 Yang it is. I already learned the YMAA Yang 108 from a dvd. Ill post on here what I see different. Then he wants to teach the Push hands, applications, Dim mak and then see if I can use it, then certify me to teach... So its gonna be a long path, but worth it.

[Dvivid]

The additional movements say lean forward and punch lower dantian or step and bump with thier step, hurting the opponent, going with the flow, and putting YOU back in control. If you follow Dr. Yang's form, the next move is Turn, twist body and circle fist, or white snake spits poison. You could technically turn your wrist, turn around and kinda rollback with one hand, pushing the opponent to your side, but their stepping back, so you would have to compete with their force and body wieght that way, which is not true Taijiquan.

Lilman, I think you misunderstand. The form is only the form. It is a way of preserving the art, and passing on the movements and their applications.

If you are using any one of the Taijiquan movements, or pattern, in an actual fighting situation, you are not required to follow that movement with the next movement as it is sequenced in the form. In addition, the application of a pattern looks quite different than the performance of the same pattern within the form. Yes, it WILL look like there are 'extra' moves, as you follow through and either punch, kick, wrestle, or chin na the opponent.

I promise that if you were pushing hands with Dr Yang, and you managed to counter one of his applications, the movement that followed would NOT be one you were expecting. The form just trains the movements into your body memory until you build up reflexes. After that, you work toward the form of no form, no shadow, no shape...

Or so I think, with my limited understanding.

[lilman]

I understand. The point of a form is to be formless. The more I learn the more I understand. The additional movements are there to preserve the martial essence of the form and to develop habits to counter other movements. But if you don't know it you don't know it.

[Josh Young]

I study the WTBA material and taijiquan, I find Erle's material is not taiji at all, but is taiji based and is effective to a degree.

[lilman]

My teacher teaches traditional taijiquan he learned from 2 sources. Master Li who was originally from Mt Wudang, and was not loyal to any one style. He studied Wudang. Yang Chen Wu Wu hao and sun. He also learned from ark yue Wong. Some of the stuff I seen from erle is the same. But I never learned with him, so

[Josh Young]

When I met my teacher he had been teaching for 27 years, and practicing for a bit longer. He had spent 6 years in Taiwan and did taijiquan daily there.
He has had several teachers as well, in Taiwan, Singapore, and in the States.

He found a Yang style he liked in particular that came from Chen Wei-Ming that teaches via an old method as opposed to via form as is so common now.
This method is based upon the 13 postures.

I have read books and articles by Erle, I own a few videos of his, as does my teacher. I work with students in his WTBA group 2-3 times a week, my best friend is working on becoming an instructor in the system assuming he meets Erle/Eli's approval.

It has some common elements with traditional taijiquan, however the system is founded by Erle himself and no other person. It is largely copyrighted and modified by Erle to make it obvious when people are performing his variants as opposed to more traditional methods.

It is a good system for many things, but is not the same as the taijiquan I know and love. My teacher taught me there is no one true way for taijiquan, I am not someone who believes there is a single correct way to do it. I say it is not taijiquan because it doesn't connect with or relate to taiji or wuji in the way that taijiquan does.

I like it enough to draw from the tradition, however the comprehension of the system pales in comparison to the taiji I love.

[lilman]

Thanks for the clarification on that. Ice seen bits and pieces of the form but never the whole thing. He includes what my teacher refers to as the secrets.