Im happy to here that syd, its just this phrase that got my attention,
*rude commentary deleted... now on to the conclusion*
If your not arguing then great. But this whole conversation is a matter of comparisons. If you 2 do not meet eachother in person and show the differences in your forms and applications, there is no way you will both have a complete mutual understanding. These additional movements blew my mind cuz they are not mainstream Taiji. Even Dr. Yang who put out books and dvds on "Traditional" Taijiquan doesnt perform them in his form, so we have to understand and accept the mainstream for what it is. Its like telling someone the sky is blue when they've been locked in a box their whole life and never seen outside. It may be, but how do they know what your telling them is true? And how do we know mainstream is not the truth and someone after Yang Lu Chan added these movements?... We dont...
Now I would love to hear Dr. Yang's position on these "extra" movements in the form. I respect and admire Dr. Yang greatly, hes doing some AMAZING things, and I hope to be able to do what hes doing one day, but from some people I spoke with who are not YMAA students, and past personal expereinces with questions (ie, my fa jing question, which I had to learn by experience cuz I still havent found it in the book and had a poor teacher...), I feel if the questions were asked to him, he would just refer us to one of his books, or maybe even someone elese's books/videos, which really does concern me. The reason I would like his opinion is hes teaching his traditional taijiquan, but those "extra" movements really do give a sense of completion to taijiquan. They also give a sense of completion and continuation to the applications. They are your self defense if your movements get defended against. for example:
You pull the opponent down with needle at bottom of the sea, they pull thier arm back against your pull, so you try fan through back, what if the opponent steps back and grabs your pushing arm? Your moving forward hes moving back, and hes in control. The additional movements say lean forward and punch lower dantian or step and bump with thier step, hurting the opponent, going with the flow, and putting YOU back in control. If you follow Dr. Yang's form, the next move is Turn, twist body and circle fist, or white snake spits poison. You could technically turn your wrist, turn around and kinda rollback with one hand, pushing the opponent to your side, but their stepping back, so you would have to compete with their force and body wieght that way, which is not true Taijiquan. I understand theres other applications you can do from the form at that point, and other variations that could apply or be analyzed but Im trying to relay the completeness that you feel when doing Taiji with the extra movements not necessarily in applications, but just practicing the form... I guess you could say, its more like real fighting...
The only reason I could see them being removed, is if the teacher didnt want students/onlookers to be able to defend themselves against thier Taiji... hmmmm.... Food for thought... Not accusing Dr. Yang personally of doing that... But maybe further down the road, it happened?... IF those extra movements really are the original movements.
I also agree with what you say about the form being trained more than once and fast. The reason I bring that up here, is some of Dr. Yang's Taiji books can be misleading without a teacher. He states
whenever you do the Taiji form,
imagine an opponent, also basically practice it with all your concentration, immerse yourself in the Taiji, and he states
do the form 3 times, once as a warmup, once for Qi circulation, and once to cooldown. Thats as far as he goes into depth. To me, and any beginner without a good competent teacher, that would mean,
do the form nonchelantly (for lack of a better word) once while imagining being attacked by an opponent, Concentrate and lead the Qi while being attacked by an opponent, then again do the form slower and imagine being attacked by an opponent. If you concentrate on being attacked by an opponent everytime, your imagination is taking up your concentration, when it should just be on developing Qi.
How I believe it should be done is;
The first form should be relaxed and concentrated, focussing on building Qi. The second form should be relaxed and concentrated Focusing on leading Qi, the 3rd should be relaxed and concentrated focusing on building more Qi. Then you should do Fast Taiji imagining an opponent. And thats if you only decide your gonna do the form at least 3 times a day. If you wanna do more, I believe the main focus should be building Qi. Martial applications come separately, and can be practiced before or after the forms on thier own, with a real or imaginary opponent. I prefer real but sometimes imaginary is all you have. And the form should not be practiced focusing on building and leading Qi until the applications are understood, so you focus and lead Qi the right way for the basic applications. I also believe if your writing books to teach people, you dont know the people whos reading the books background, some people dont understand things the same levels as others, so EVERYTHING should be dumbed down to the lowest level so everyone can grasp the meaning, even if were assuming they have a teacher to ask. I had a teacher, but he couldnt answer 1/2 my questions properly that my new teacher can. Not saying anything bad about Dr. Yang's books. I still learn a lot from them. Just some constructive criticism, cuz its harder for beginners to grasp some things.
Another thing that concerns me, that I would like to ask about, Dr Yang never mentions in any of his Taiji books the unbendable arm. He also never mentions that you should never look down in Taiji unless your hitting at a downward angle. I dont know if he dont teach/know those secrets, but he does say it is important that masters reveal ALL their knowledge. He does say that your eyes follow your movement, however your eyes focus the Qi, your mind LEADS the Qi. If you look down at any time, your Qi will sink there, and you will be easily uprooted. You should look at about the opponents eye level, not focusing on any one thing, and see your target in your peripheral vision, focusing your yi on the target, while keeping your eye level high. it will raise your spirit, and in my experience, make your Qi more effective.
My teacher showed me, and had me sink into a 60% on rear leg 40%on front leg posture and look down at his chest. he pushed me back and up, and I moved, then, in the same posture, he had me look at his 3rd eye point and do the same, he couldnt move me. Also its important to have your toes point in the same direction, not at angles to each other. It will make it harder to uproot you. If anyone wants to learn about the unbendable arm, and how to counter it, I can post it on here, you can learn it in less than 5 minutes if you have a partner. I will not post it unless someone requests me to, cuz I dont want to waist time typing it if no one is interested. It helps defend against Qinna and can be used in any self defense situation. It is as much a part of Taiji as it is Aikido where it is made famous. Dr. Yang said that the art is slowly being lost, this is part of the art thats missing to most people, and I believe if he knows it, he should have included it in Tai Chi Chuan Martial Applications. So should have sinking with an incoming force and the technique I mentioned about the eyes... The reason the art is being lost is teachers are trying to protect themselves by not releasing this knowledge, well this knowledge is important to mastery and should be released to those willing to learn so the art doesnt die out. And to what Ive seen with my experience, the art is growing to phenominal proportions, but it has a contagous terminal cancer that gets worse with each following generation... Knowledge is power my friends, and this is the place we should be sharing secrets. More masters and students should be sharing the available knowledge so we can all learn and grow, and the art does not die.