Some nice videos to think about

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Some nice videos to think about

Postby Josh Young » Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:53 am

My teacher turned me onto this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dNT1IUM4AE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-247J7MJnU

I have also been keeping a close eye on this fellow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiRMDKzq8BA

Excellent skills and demonstration!

What do you think?
Thanks!
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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby Monsoon » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:40 pm

The obvious caution should be applied to watching all these type of videos. Such demonstrations on suggestable students must be viewed with a large slice of scepticism.

While I mean no disrespect to the practitioners themselves, outside of experiencing this first hand the only partially reliable indicator of these skills would be to apply them to someone who is not expecting it.

Just sayin' really.

(I'm just an old cynic at heart :D )
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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby Josh Young » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:20 pm

I totally agree and know right where you are coming from, or so I think.

In the examples I gave there is no mystical force or qi demonstration going on, it is all physical and kinetic and dealing with leverage and listening skills...

(edited to add this: There is Qi involved here, but it isn't like he is sending his qi out and making them move in some odd (jedi knight) way, he uses qi with jing in his body to achieve a physical aka kinetic result.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TUElBATolE

Here is one that shows some more application type material.

It is good to question, as long as one does so with an open mind, then one will learn!

When it comes to Mizner I am biased in his favor, no doubt. He and I get along well online and I have a lot of respect for his skill and views, though we do not agree about everything.
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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby caesar » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:12 pm

I've been amazed when watching Mitzer's videos. I wish there was a teacher like him in every corner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QugrJ2vwG8U
Another cool clip.
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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby Greg Jah » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:23 pm

caesar wrote:I've been amazed when watching Mitzer's videos. I wish there was a teacher like him in every corner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QugrJ2vwG8U
Another cool clip.


Agreed! This clip in particular really spoke to me. Thanks for sharing it.

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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby Josh Young » Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:02 pm

I consider this amazingly good taijiquan.

Very old feeling, having stuff in common with Yang, Chen, Wu, Wu-Hao Sun and Michuan.
It is what I would expect an "old yang" form to look like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72wj91R7DAA

It is missing specific markers that Cheng-fu put into the form that many so called older styles have...

it also has Fa in it, check out 7:45.
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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby Monsoon » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:16 pm

@7:45 it looks like a video glitch. Notice how the whole pcture jumps, not jus the practitioners thrust.

Sorry, that's how it looks to me.
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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby Josh Young » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:56 pm

Even if there is a glitch there, there is fa there as well. It looks perfect to me, like a bow and arrow.

However there is fa in it in other places too. Leaping etc, the exact same kind that is in the Yang Jian form where Cheng-Fu taught fa (he ommitted it from the Public form and taught it with the Jian form.)

My connection is really slow right now, I will point it out later...
I am also discusing this form with the One Planet, One People Global Martial Arts Enthusiasts facebook group.

I also saw some discussion about it as "the rum soaked fist" though i despise that forum.
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15710

Additonally it fits well with comments by the scholar Chen Wei-Ming about transmissions of taiji that do not go through Chen style. Some believe that this form comes from the Yangs still, however there is not any evidence of that. It can be noted however that Wei-Ming states that Yang Shao-Hou taught him a Taijiquan push hands pattern with circular stepping identical to that of Bagua, the same footwork is present in the form here.

It strikes me as strong independant confirmation of the Michuan claims.

It also has some curious content that if you inserted it into the CPL 99 form you could end up with something a lot like Old Yang from the WTBA.

Personally having studied forms a great deal, it is among the most impressive forms I have ever seen.

Since the Michuan material was unheard of for a very long time, the content this video has in common with it, is profound. The Fushan people are unlikely to have ever had access to Michuan style, and yet have incredibly similar technology. Then the content in common with early Yang"ish" styles of both Wu and Wu-Hao is also very interesting. Same goes for Sun style for obvious reasons.

Then there is Vajra-Fist style... that is where this gets really interesting for me... more on that later.
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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby Josh Young » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:53 pm

Ok Vajra Fist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gACtudspKaY
I think this is relevant but won't say more for the moment about that.

I looked again, I do not see a frame glitch or a jump at 7:45 in the Fushan vid.

If we consider that old style Yang has fast kicks and the video has fast kicks, that is interesting.

More fa at 10:00, 12:43 and in other places as well.

Considering that the Yang long form is dumbed down, first by Yang Luchan and then by Yang Cheng-Fu, and that the content of this form is a lot like that of the Wu styles that pre-dated the simplification of the Yang Public form, including fast kicks, some fa, a bit of jumping etc, then this seems to be not only the real deal, but impossible to fake with regards to the content. If it was made up, it could not have content in common with Michuan for example, which was not public for a very long time. It is just impossible, or so I believe, that this is not legit.

I also hate to admit it, but it corroborates some of Erl Montaigues claims and form content as well. Clearly Erle is doing a version of the CPL 99 form, but the differences between the 99 form and the Old Yang are almost all found in this Fushan form, I and a WTBA member had assumed they had come from Chen, but they are far closer to this form of Taiji than they are to Chen.

It is forcing me to rethink a bunch of historical theory.
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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby Monsoon » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:36 pm

Rechecked. Yeah, glitch was at my end not on the vid!

Interesting form. It will also be interesting to hear where your thoughts are going on this.

What difference will this make to existing practitioners? Will we approach a situation where we will have to all stop what we are doing and start relearning? Or perhaps there will be another round of 'my form is more traditional than yours' among various groups (which serves nobody IMO).

The problem I find with a lot of research in these areas is that when something original surfaces people tend to think that it devalues everything else. I don't think anyone wants to accept that they have been practising an incorrect system - especially if they have been at it for years.
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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby Monsoon » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:21 pm

This might be at a tangent, but here goes anyway!

It is often noted that liuhebafaquan (6 harmonies/unities, 8 methods) contains elements of xingyi, bagua, and taiji. However, this point is also often disputed. What I have yet to see argued, and I am putting this out there now, is that the root of LHBF predates the other IMAs and may well have been the precursor to all three.

In the video Josh has put up, and in the approach by yangjia miquan practitioners, there is evident rising and falling. Although this is not so prevalent in the 'standard' 3 IMAs mentioned above, it is a signature element throughout LHBF.

There is no compelling reason, that I can think of, to suggest that LHBF is a composite art rather than the other IMAs being offshoots from it.

Beyond this, while there is much variation in how a body/energy can be moved, there is also a clear indication that the variations are not endless and are naturally constrained by the limitations of physical mechanics. And perhaps the simplest theory is that it is no surprise, given these limitations, that there should be much apparent similarity across arts.

As in the last post, I also want to caution against the type of petty mud-slinging that went on when miquan hove into public view. These videos are indeed very interesting, but they do not cast doubt over the value of existing arts, in my opinion. If they did we would never learn anything properly, as we would flit from one 'newly discoverd form' to another, never settling and never developing. Once again, just my opinion. :D
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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby John the Monkey mind » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:20 am

Josh Young wrote:Ok Vajra Fist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gACtudspKaY
I think this is relevant but won't say more for the moment about that.



Dvivid said that YMAA publishing are looking to put a disk out on Vajra Fist soon so that is something for us all to look forward to :)
I will give it a go and then maybe seek out someone who actually knows it to polish my finish product.
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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby Josh Young » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:27 am

Monsoon wrote:What difference will this make to existing practitioners? Will we approach a situation where we will have to all stop what we are doing and start relearning?

It doesn't change any practice for me that I know of.
The problem I find with a lot of research in these areas is that when something original surfaces people tend to think that it devalues everything else. I don't think anyone wants to accept that they have been practising an incorrect system - especially if they have been at it for years.

I agree.

Monsoon wrote:This might be at a tangent, but here goes anyway!

It is often noted that liuhebafaquan (6 harmonies/unities, 8 methods) contains elements of xingyi, bagua, and taiji. However, this point is also often disputed. What I have yet to see argued, and I am putting this out there now, is that the root of LHBF predates the other IMAs and may well have been the precursor to all three.

Could be the case and is worth considering and researching. I am of the opinion that they all hail from a common ancestral art.

There is no compelling reason, that I can think of, to suggest that LHBF is a composite art rather than the other IMAs being offshoots from it.

I don't know about the others being offshoots per say, it is like us and the chimp, we do not descend from chimps, but share a common ancestor. Or perhaps it is as you suggest.
Beyond this, while there is much variation in how a body/energy can be moved, there is also a clear indication that the variations are not endless and are naturally constrained by the limitations of physical mechanics. And perhaps the simplest theory is that it is no surprise, given these limitations, that there should be much apparent similarity across arts.

I think this is the least likely answer, it is the archetypal cop-out that is used all to often to overlook transmissions of culture across borders and languages and these days even genetic evidence.
These videos are indeed very interesting, but they do not cast doubt over the value of existing arts, in my opinion.

I totally agree. For me the arts are just all the more validated, Yang as a refined style for example. I think it is totally valuable to practice.
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Re: Some nice videos to think about

Postby Monsoon » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:15 pm

Hey Josh,

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that cross-cultural transmission doesn't take place, merely that given the same tools it is reasonable to expect certain similarities in how said tools are used. In this case the tool is the human body. I don't believe what I said is an 'archetypal cop-out' as such, but concede that I could have written it less ambiguously.

Besides which, we are limited by our own body mechanics to a certain extent. I would hardly think this is debatable really.

Re-touching on your concern for re-evaluating Mr Montaigue: never met the man myself, but have seen more than enough of his videos to last a lifetime! My impression was that he had been exposed to an awful lot of information but was unsure of how to put it all together into a coherent whole - despite some good efforts. And wow! could the man talk or what? There are taiji and bagua videos on YouTube that are 10 minutes of nothing but talk and zero demonstration. I feel he didn't get the balance right between discussion and education, but that's just my opinion. I have no real beef against the man. Some of his adherents though...
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