Palm formation.

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Palm formation.

Postby caesar » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:33 pm

Hi there.

I tried to search if this topic was already discussed with no luck...

So...I'd be interested to hear why and what the ideas are on different TCC styles concerning the formation of palm.

Chen style seems to let all the fingers point at same direction with thumb close to rest of fingers...while many yang styles train this "tiger mouth" where space is wide between thumb and index finger...then I see yang styles without this and I wonder what is the YMAA approach...Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming seems to have his palm very loose without extending the thumb...about Wu and other styles I have no idea.

Please correct if I'm wrong on any of my observations.
caesar
 

Re: Palm formation.

Postby Dvivid » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:13 pm

Dr. Yang discusses the hand form in this video. He shapes the hand as 'tile hand' to direct qi flow.

http://ymaa.com/articles/yang-tai-chi-for-beginners
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing
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Re: Palm formation.

Postby caesar » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:36 am

Thanks, that was interesting although he didn't talk much about the palm. But I did found some information googleing "tile hand." For tiger mouth I can't find almost anything...
caesar
 

Re: Palm formation.

Postby Dvivid » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:48 am

There isn't much to talk about with the hand form, unless you want to get into the theory of each channel in the hand.

The idea is you tense the sides of the hand, and keep the center loose to lead the energy to the center. And, for beginners, learning the hand form helps them to be mindful in their movement all the way out to the tips of the fingers, rather than the arms being sort of 'dead'.
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

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Re: Palm formation.

Postby caesar » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:35 pm

Well sure the theory of the channels would be interesting but I guess I wouldn't understand it anyway with my current knowledge.

I'm starting to believe there isn't much to talk about it then...although the comparison between tiger mouth and tile hand and "chen style" way roams in my mind...I ask myself why these different styles have come to conclusion to train different palm formations and what are the benefits or disadvantages of each.

I was once told that Chen stylists keep the thumb near the index finger for practical combat reasons, so that the opponent wouldn't get a grib of the thumb so easily...which leads me to think what the "counter argument" would be of other styles and palm formations.

Might be I'm over thinking it, but I can't really deny my interest on it either. Thanks for the input anyway.
caesar
 

Re: Palm formation.

Postby caesar » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:56 am

I eventually found this article if somebody interested:

http://ittcs.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/n ... ers-mouth/
caesar
 

Re: Palm formation.

Postby Cezwad » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:22 pm

Hi Ceasar,
Is this what you were thinking about when you said "tiger mouth"?
Because I found this interesting article about hands forms in Kung Fu:
http://osukungfu.com/lesson4.html
I do not know if this help but I hope it does!
Best regards.
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Re: Palm formation.

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:50 pm

caesar wrote:I was once told that Chen stylists keep the thumb near the index finger for practical combat reasons, so that the opponent wouldn't get a grib of the thumb so easily...which leads me to think what the "counter argument" would be of other styles and palm formations.

If someone grabs your THUMB while you are fighting, you need a new teacher! I know caesar, I have heard this from a few "tai chi" people, but it is the most ridiculous statement ever made on the arts.. well, that and "i can move you without touching you!"

as to the hand formation, there is a right way and a wrong way! The wrong way uses all the non-taiji attributes (and has been described). The correct way is to follow the taiji principles! I know that is vague, but if everyone just gets spoonfed everything, they never learn, and worse, people who are ignorant blab all their ignorance, and i just dont put up with that stuff any more.
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Re: Palm formation.

Postby adamfuray » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:58 pm

the thumb is one of the easiest joints on the human body to lock. All beginning qinna student learn this early. And yes, that is the primary reason the thumb is kept in for Chen style. Other styles may have their reasons.
"I know sir, that I have played out of tune, but when I learn where to place my fingers, this shall no longer happen."-Giovanni Bottesini
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Re: Palm formation.

Postby wpgtaiji » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:08 pm

I know its one of the easiest joints to lock! Regardless, if it happens to you, your teacher taught you "wushu", not gung fu... wait, that dont make sense!

I will put it another way: if our arms were grabbed in training, after we did a strike, we were beaten with sticks! The reason people get their thumbs grabbed is cuz they have no clue how to punch/strike, period.

Now, if you are hugging each other, and a thumb gets grabbed, thats a different story! Tell your partner to stop being so rough! Either way, you deserve it!

The problem is that people confuse DEMONSTRATION with actual fighting! Even sparring with actual fighting!

And really, why would 2 REAL martial artists ever be fighting each other? When that happens, BOTH of them need new teachers!
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Re: Palm formation.

Postby adamfuray » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:36 am

right. so you are in favor of thumbs in or out?
"I know sir, that I have played out of tune, but when I learn where to place my fingers, this shall no longer happen."-Giovanni Bottesini
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Re: Palm formation.

Postby Monsoon » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:20 am

Have to have thumbs first.

Sorry wpg, it was too hard to resist. :P
peace and harmony

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Re: Palm formation.

Postby adamfuray » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:13 am

Image

or maybe just thumbs up?
"I know sir, that I have played out of tune, but when I learn where to place my fingers, this shall no longer happen."-Giovanni Bottesini
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Re: Palm formation.

Postby caesar » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:08 am

Cezwad wrote:Hi Ceasar,
Is this what you were thinking about when you said "tiger mouth"?
Because I found this interesting article about hands forms in Kung Fu:
http://osukungfu.com/lesson4.html
I do not know if this help but I hope it does!
Best regards.



Hi Cezwad,

and thanks for the link! I'm not sure if the "tiger mouth" in your link is the same that taught in TCC or does it contain the same idea, as the picture in your link gives me a pretty tensed and petrified feeling of the hand. But that is of course only my interpretation of the picture. The tiger mouth I meant is described in the link above I gave...it's the way I've been taught when doing hand form.

Here's also an article I recently found comparing and giving examples of different palm formations of TCC.
http://www.gilmanstudio.com/print.php?id=103
caesar
 

Re: Palm formation.

Postby chh » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:54 am

I really like what I've read of Michael Gilman's stuff. Someone gave me something of his to read in my first year of practicing tai chi, and I've always found it really informative and inspiring. Thanks for the link, caesar.
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Re: Palm formation.

Postby Josh Young » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:19 pm

I use different palms for different things... i have often used a training method of striking steel beams, poles and trees as well. I found that depending on the strike, and other factors like the target, I should vary my palm formation.

However David brought up the median thing, the gates in the hands are very important to taijiquan. I consider that a far more important teaching than one dealing with application specifically.

The older palm mudra, used for martial arts, artistic representation of sacred figures and some spiritual purposes has a few variations but primarily keeps the thumb back and close to the index finger. Irony dictates that some two hands mudras not only teach finger locks, but defense to them.

The idea that if someone gets you in a type of lock you need a new teacher has a limit, some people can put a lock on you as fast as a WTBA snap punch. These people are rare, but if one of the is able to put a lock on you you don't need a new teacher, you need to accept that when someone with advanced skills uses even basic techniques then there is not a lot you can do against it other than avoid the conflict in the first place.
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Re: Palm formation.

Postby nitsuj » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:39 am

I practice Chen style and our teacher has us keep our pinky and ring fingers close, and hand relaxed. That's it--- at least so far.
We don't do anything special with our thumbs.
We utilize "lion mouth" for a particular part of one of our forms.

In the straight sword form that I am learning, our free hand is held much differently than in the lao jia form.
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Re: Palm formation.

Postby caesar » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:29 am

chh wrote:I really like what I've read of Michael Gilman's stuff. Someone gave me something of his to read in my first year of practicing tai chi, and I've always found it really informative and inspiring. Thanks for the link, caesar.



My pleasure. :)

I started about a year ago...so feel free to P.M me (goes for everyone) if you have interesting/inspiring articles/tips as well.
caesar
 

Re: Palm formation.

Postby caesar » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:10 am

So this is what confuses me a bit...in Chen style, also in form training the thumb is close to index finger for practical reasons...in Yang style, the thumb is kept apart, because of channel thoery. I highly doubt that any yang style artist would keep their thumb as in the form in a real life situation: "hey, take my thumb!"

So is it fair to say (trying not to offend anybody or any style) that palm formation in yang styles (when practising form) is focusing mostly on "building qi"...logically being one the reasons, that the martiality of yang style is more hidden, or not so transparent as in for example Chen style?
caesar
 

Re: Palm formation.

Postby adamfuray » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:29 pm

i have never heard of a medical or energetic advantage to keeping your thumb seperate from the rest of your hand/fingers. If there is such information out there, please post it.
"I know sir, that I have played out of tune, but when I learn where to place my fingers, this shall no longer happen."-Giovanni Bottesini
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