About Breathing...

[pete5770]

To Pete 5770...I don't recall mentioning you by name until now... until you called attention to yourself.

Breathe in and out - before you start to type.

~Peace to all who accept it.

Well, were you or were you not refering to me in a previous post about being "civil"?

** Rollback **

good one.

[pete5770]

wpgtaiji, it is refreshing to see the question "what are they eating?" it is a very important component and with all of the balance required to practice the ritual of taijiquan, it seems logical that it should be applied in some way or another to every other aspect of one's life - and two very crucial aspects are disposition and diet. I don't want to get too far off the topic of taijiquan, but I'd love to see more threads in general chat about balanced diet perhaps links to interesting health articles and they don't even have to be "alternative" - so long as yat chum's Ways of thinking remains at the top --- to complement Brian's Taijiquan Resources on the internet thread which I think would be a good place for people to add useful articles for students and teachers.

Taiji is the MOTHER! Everything is included in it! "WHAT???" Seriously mate. When I first started working with the Chenfu form (similar to Dr yang's form.. but not close), one day, i woke up and i couldnt eat what I "liked" (hamburgers and fries, for example). I had this desire to eat "healthy"! So, like any scientist, i stopped taiji for a bit and voila! I could eat again! The good taiji forms BALANCE you out to compliment the diet. Most of the western methods deplete the body, causing binging and purging episodes. Ever follow the dietary habits of bodybuilders? And weights are "good" for you? RIGHT! Moderation.

btw, to the WTBA, food is a foundational practice (though, some of us have bad habits still ). You wont find it on the 400 dvds, but it was there from the boss. If the new Combat & Healing ever comes out, it may have an email chain I had with Erle on his dietary habits. I checked it with Sandra in January and she said, for the most part, it was bang on. Nothing "balanced" about it mate (according to western medicine). In fact, reading it then seeing him do seminars all day with the way he expressed power, you wonder HOW?? All I can say is, there is a lot we dont generally understand. Also, Erle had his way, but it isnt for everyone. I have discussed with a Doctor (who is on a few of the Australia dvds) and he argued with Erle about some of the ideas. It is vital to do your own thing. Healing with Whole Foods is a top notch resource for those interested in diet paradigms of the East AND West!

I'm in complete agreement with you on a good healthy diet. I was one of the people who ate pretty much what I pleased, drank the beer and margaritas, that sort of thing. Long story short, I ended up overweight, with high blood pressure, and slightly(pre) diabetic. So I dropped the drinking, monster burritos, and bad carbs. I've lost the weight, no diabeties, and blood pressure much better. I would add that I have always excerised(cycling, weights, Tai Chi) but even those were not enough to offset the effects of all that "good livin'". Correct diet? Absolutely. Probably the only problem, in this day and age, is figuring out what a good diet is. It's the same old joke about how "everything causes cancer according to someone".

[pete5770]

.... but back to the breathing thing. My last Tai Chi instructor was a Biology Phd. and a
university professor. FWIW his thoughts were that breathing naturally, without any special emphasis, is what evolution teaches us and if there was a better way evolution would have found it. This idea holds a lot of weight with me because, like him, I believe if there was a better way millions of years of evolution would have given it to us. As for things like deep cleansing breathes, this is something that evolution gave us, not the Chinese. Give the evolution of us all a little credit.

[Brian]

Just throwing this into the pot to demostrate how changing your breathing can have measurable changes in body/blood chemistry (and this has nothing to do with Taiji/Qigong etc):

Training for free-diving can take many forms and be done on the land.
One example is the apnea walk. This consists of a preparation "breathe-up", followed by a short (typically 1 minute) breath hold taken at rest. Without breaking the hold, the participant then initiates a walk for as far as they can, until it becomes necessary to breathe again. Athletes can do close to 400 meters in training this way.

This form of training is good for accustoming muscles to work under anaerobic conditions, and for tolerance to CO2 build-up in the circulation. It is also easy to gauge progress, as increasing distance can be measured.

Before competition attempt, free-divers perform preparation sequence, which usually consists of physical stretching, mental exercise and breath exercise. It may include sequention of variable length static apnea, special purging deep breaths, hyperventilation. Result of preparation sequence is slower metabolism, lower heart rate and breath rate, lower level of CO2 in bloodstream and overall mental equilibrium.

Evolution didn't give us this....it is a learned technique.

Haven't even mentioned the QG word....

[pete5770]

Just throwing this into the pot to demostrate how changing your breathing can have measurable changes in body/blood chemistry (and this has nothing to do with Taiji/Qigong etc):

Training for free-diving can take many forms and be done on the land.
One example is the apnea walk. This consists of a preparation "breathe-up", followed by a short (typically 1 minute) breath hold taken at rest. Without breaking the hold, the participant then initiates a walk for as far as they can, until it becomes necessary to breathe again. Athletes can do close to 400 meters in training this way.

This form of training is good for accustoming muscles to work under anaerobic conditions, and for tolerance to CO2 build-up in the circulation. It is also easy to gauge progress, as increasing distance can be measured.

Before competition attempt, free-divers perform preparation sequence, which usually consists of physical stretching, mental exercise and breath exercise. It may include sequention of variable length static apnea, special purging deep breaths, hyperventilation. Result of preparation sequence is slower metabolism, lower heart rate and breath rate, lower level of CO2 in bloodstream and overall mental equilibrium.

Evolution didn't give us this....it is a learned technique.

Haven't even mentioned the QG word....

I don't really disagree with what you say except the part about it being a "learned technique".
All you have to do is go to a pool and watch kids. There are always trying to swim across the pool
underwater but before they try it they start by taking in big gulps of air. No one taught them this, they just know that it's what you need to do. It's something that humans have done, well, for as long as they have been swimming. No instruction needed for even the first underwater swimmer. He / she knew that you needed to get a few good breaths in you first. I guess I'm saying that these techniques that you talk about are already part of us. We can possibly get better at breathing a bit more efficiently but it's nothing we don't already do, to some extent, in the trials and tribulations of our daily lives.

[caesar]

It's like you're trying to say that Qi Gong and its methods are not natural. It's like you'd say that training some ability we already have will become unnatural while we focus on it and learn how it naturally happens and do it better. You are still missing the point if you're trying to say that Qi Gong is taking breathing to something "totally different and unnatural."

Evolution is a good point to start thinking what's natural for us and what's not. But we've been also walking and running for our whole existence through evolution, yet still many have developed ways to injure their knees by walking and running in false ways. Are you saying it's also dumb to start concentrating on how you walk and run if you're having a knee injury?

The same thing can be said about breathing. Stress and unnatural positions where we breath nowadays (sitting on chair with back totally curved etc) affects the way we breath and the way we breath affects our health (BTW, do you agree with this? The way we breath affects our health?)

Chairs weren't there for the whole time while our breathing was (and still is) evolving, yet the today's science agrees with the fact how different ways to sit affects our spine and it's position. The spine again affects our whole posture when we stand or sit or lie...do you agree that our posture affects our health?

I think you are still adding too much mysticism on Qi Gong.

[pete5770]

The same thing can be said about breathing. Stress and unnatural positions where we breath nowadays (sitting on chair with back totally curved etc) affects the way we breath and the way we breath affects our health (BTW, do you agree with this? The way we breath affects our health?)

I think you are still adding too much mysticism on Qi Gong.

I recently read an article which said that slouching in a chair was better than sitting up straight.
It would appear that the authors of that article don't believe your mother was right when she told you top stop slouching. Wasn't there a book called "Lies My Mother Told Me" or something along those lines? Adults of the future - slouch on.

As for mysticism, I've never been a believer in that sort of thing. Qigong sure seems, to me, to be mystical. What with it's power lines running through the body, which no one can see. The chi itself, which no one can see. Add to that the fact that I have never seen anyone demonstrate
anything that resembled any of, oh say, the hundreds of descriptions I've heard people give about it. If it's there, and it may well be or not, then it's always been there and learning it is not an option as we already know it and are using it even as we post. I believe you guys are the mystical ones.

[Dvivid]

Im happy this thread has found its way back to the topic of breathing.

When we're born, we breathe deeply and abdominally. Healthy breathing comes for most of us naturally until we enter our teens.

It has been demonstrated by many, many Western medical studies that as we age that we develop shallow breathing habits, due to the hectic and stressful pace of our very unnatural world and modern lifestyles. This is also common sense.

When you have shallow breath, your cortisol levels rise, your immune system is suppressed, and your cell replacement process becomes stagnant. You age more quickly and are more susceptible to illness.

Therefore, most people need to re-learn slower and deeper breathing habits for general health.

Martial artists and those interested in going beyond a basic level of health need to study breathing techniques in more detail. This is historically an essential part of most traditional lineages of Chinese martial arts, qigong, meditation, yoga, and the like.

Healthier breathing habits can add years to your life, and improve your daily quality of life in the meantime.

Slouching...? Indeed.

[Dvivid]

Regarding slouching...

For every inch that the head moves forward in posture, it increases the weight of the head on the neck by 10 pounds!

Poor neck posture leads to a Forward Head Position which is one of the most common causes of neck, head and shoulder tension and pain. This can be a result of injuries like sprains and strains of the neck leading to weak neck muscles, poor sleeping positions and the illustrated examples of driving stress, computer neck, couch neck and readers neck along with improper breathing habits.
The extra pressure on the neck from altered posture flattens the normal curve of the cervical spine resulting in abnormal strain of muscles, ligaments, bones and joints of the neck causing the joints to deteriorate faster than normal resulting in degenerative joint disease or neck arthritis as indicated in an article published in the Spine Journal, recognized internationally as the leading journal in its field and the leading subspecialty journal for the treatment of spinal disorders, 1986;6:591-694.

This is a good resource regarding posture and alignment.
http://erikdalton.com/media/published-articles/

[Dvivid]

I recommend subscribing to the health newsletters from Harvard. Some of it is common sense, but a lot of it corresponds with the traditional arts.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newslette ... eep-breath

[pete5770]

Regarding slouching...

For every inch that the head moves forward in posture, it increases the weight of the head on the neck by 10 pounds!

Poor neck posture leads to a Forward Head Position which is one of the most common causes of neck, head and shoulder tension and pain. This can be a result of injuries like sprains and strains of the neck leading to weak neck muscles, poor sleeping positions and the illustrated examples of driving stress, computer neck, couch neck and readers neck along with improper breathing habits.
The extra pressure on the neck from altered posture flattens the normal curve of the cervical spine resulting in abnormal strain of muscles, ligaments, bones and joints of the neck causing the joints to deteriorate faster than normal resulting in degenerative joint disease or neck arthritis as indicated in an article published in the Spine Journal, recognized internationally as the leading journal in its field and the leading subspecialty journal for the treatment of spinal disorders, 1986;6:591-694.

This is a good resource regarding posture and alignment.
http://erikdalton.com/media/published-articles/

I only posted it to show that different people have different opinions of things and that people do question things even if their mother said it was true. I recall, when I was a child, my mother telling me that you MUST wait one hour, after you eat, before you can go swimming again. She made us wait exactly an hour(the longest of our lives). Later in life, after reading that this was an old wives tale, I threw caution to the wind and went in right after eating. Absolutley nothing happened.

[brer_momonga]

I recommend subscribing to the health newsletters from Harvard. Some of it is common sense, but a lot of it corresponds with the traditional arts.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newslette ... eep-breath

Nice article. Thanks for the link about breathing...

[NC Tai Chi]

Thank you Divivid!

[nitsuj]

Come on Pete, for someone so skeptical, you sure spend a lot of time posting on a qigong forum. Surely you can find something better to do with your time than focus on what YOU don't believe in.
Anyhow, you posted a simple question, that deserves a simple answer: "Other than a bit of stretching what are the benefits of 8 Brocades?"
Low intensity cardio. Increased lymphatic circulation. Postural improvement. Better balance. Enhanced coordination.

Get it?

BTW, you doubt the existence of qi because you cannot detect or measure it according to western scientific methods. We get your point. This leads me to assume that you do not believe in dreaming either... we can't record them; we can't explain them. We CAN measure some changes in brain activity and body "settings", but that's about it. Just like qi. So, I guess, dreams don't really happen either, according to YOUR thinking.

Do everyone a favor, and either figure out a way to disagree that isn't condescending, and doesn't eat up 50% of the discussion... or go annoy another group, somewhere far away from this one.

[pete5770]

Come on Pete, for someone so skeptical, you sure spend a lot of time posting on a qigong forum. Surely you can find something better to do with your time than focus on what YOU don't believe in.

I really never imagined my saying I didn't believe something would cause such a stir. I figured a few might call me an idiot and other things along that line. What I don't believe is that people are so incensed about what I say. After all, it's only one opinion, and by an idiot no less. I get the strangest feeling that I have challanged a belief that some people WANT to believe in more than they actually DO believe. True believers would simply call me a heathen, leave it at that, and go back to their studies of the subject. Some of the post's remind me of newly quit smokers railing against the evils of cigarettes when they themsleves aren't quite sure they will quit.

[adamfuray]

beliefs: when facts just won't do.

[pete5770]

beliefs: when facts just won't do.

Faith must have adequate evidence, else it is mere superstition.

[wpgtaiji]

beliefs: when facts just won't do.

Faith must have adequate evidence, else it is mere superstition.

I renew the fact you have no business posting on an internal arts nor a taiji forum. You have not done one second of taiji nor anything else to warrant such participation on these topics. And worse, you write like what you do know has merit. I assure you, it doesnt.

I suggest taking your money and buying Dr Yang's dvds on qigong. There is more science and proof on them to satisfy, yet you wont do it.

[nitsuj]

[nitsuj]

The ONLY feeling you should get is that no one likes your comments. You add nothing to anything here. The only point you have made is that you feel qi is little more than superstition. We get it. If only YOU could have figured out how to say that in one sentence and left it at that.
We're not mad because we WANT to believe in qi and you are somehow challenging these "beliefs", we're mad because your still posting nonsense...
Do us a favor and stop.