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[pete5770]

Let's talk Yang long form. How do YOU tell that you have gone far enough forward(i.e. shifted your weight forward) in any movement in the form? Or how do you know that you haven't gone far enough or too far(i.e. knee way in front of the toes)? Is there a sense of something that tells you enough or just a bit more? Also does anyone find that moving the knee forward and letting the waist follow, to be easier than weight shifts starting at the waist, by simply focusing on the knee moving as opposed to the waist? Does having the weight shift start lower(at the knee) have any positive impact on Tai Chi?

[Brian]

Let's talk Yang long form. How do YOU tell that you have gone far enough forward(i.e. shifted your weight forward) in any movement in the form? Or how do you know that you haven't gone far enough or too far(i.e. knee way in front of the toes)? Is there a sense of something that tells you enough or just a bit more?

In our studies we find that to do 'Posture Testing' is one of the best ways to determine if enough weight-shift has/is occuring during a particular move in the Form. Only when your movement comes under pressure will you know if you are adhearing to the 'Substantial/Insubstantial' principle. Take for eg. Peng (Ward Off) with right leg forward, right hand extended and left hand palm downward at left side....when pressure tested by a partner (by pushing against your right hand, in towards you)..if you have not shifted the weight forward enough (as well as sinking the shoulder and weighting the elbow) you will be pushed off balance easily. However if your weighting is correct, then the tester can push, and push...with no effect.
This is true for all postures within the form and for any style of form (not just Yang).
Also, since the Form is dynamic (ie. moving) you need to shift 100% of the weight (Substantial) in order to empty (Insubstantial) the stepping leg....and so forth.

Also does anyone find that moving the knee forward and letting the waist follow, to be easier than weight shifts starting at the waist, by simply focusing on the knee moving as opposed to the waist? Does having the weight shift start lower(at the knee) have any positive impact on Tai Chi?

In my opinion, it is the bending of the knee that initiates the weight shift, and not the waist, however you must also consider the waist in relation to tucking the Kua.

[pete5770]

Let's talk Yang long form. How do YOU tell that you have gone far enough forward(i.e. shifted your weight forward) in any movement in the form? Or how do you know that you haven't gone far enough or too far(i.e. knee way in front of the toes)? Is there a sense of something that tells you enough or just a bit more?

In our studies we find that to do 'Posture Testing' is one of the best ways to determine if enough weight-shift has/is occuring during a particular move in the Form. Only when your movement comes under pressure will you know if you are adhearing to the 'Substantial/Insubstantial' principle. Take for eg. Peng (Ward Off) with right leg forward, right hand extended and left hand palm downward at left side....when pressure tested by a partner (by pushing against your right hand, in towards you)..if you have not shifted the weight forward enough (as well as sinking the shoulder and weighting the elbow) you will be pushed off balance easily. However if your weighting is correct, then the tester can push, and push...with no effect.
This is true for all postures within the form and for any style of form (not just Yang).
Also, since the Form is dynamic (ie. moving) you need to shift 100% of the weight (Substantial) in order to empty (Insubstantial) the stepping leg....and so forth.

Also does anyone find that moving the knee forward and letting the waist follow, to be easier than weight shifts starting at the waist, by simply focusing on the knee moving as opposed to the waist? Does having the weight shift start lower(at the knee) have any positive impact on Tai Chi?

In my opinion, it is the bending of the knee that initiates the weight shift, and not the waist, however you must also consider the waist in relation to tucking the Kua.

I've become a knee first person myself but only in advancing. As it seems to give me the "right feel", whatever that means. I retreat waist first as I can't get my knee to give me that same feel when going back.

[wpgtaiji]

You know you are far enough forward when you are! This presupposes that one can actually feel where their weight actually is, which, I am seeing, is not an easy thing to learn. It seems from what people are writing, that weight is going to the knee. This is damaging for the knee joint, which is why so many of my fellow karateka have damaged knees. The weight must NOT bear on the knee. This is easy, but not easy to write about.

Besides, as one progresses, the idea changes.

[pete5770]

You know you are far enough forward when you are! This presupposes that one can actually feel where their weight actually is, which, I am seeing, is not an easy thing to learn. It seems from what people are writing, that weight is going to the knee. This is damaging for the knee joint, which is why so many of my fellow karateka have damaged knees. The weight must NOT bear on the knee. This is easy, but not easy to write about.

Besides, as one progresses, the idea changes.

I would have to say that, for me, I don't really feel the weight in or on my knee so much as the thigh muscle getting a sort of "burn". It would also seem that in a deeper stance the main mass of your body rarely, if ever, is directly over the knee, as compared to higher stances. Then the whole of your mass can be directly over the knee. Guess I'll cast a vote for nice wide deep stances and very strong thigh muscles.

[brer_momonga]

I constantly struggle with distributing weight properly in taijiquan. Too often, my knees take the brunt of the work. Doing everything as slowly as I possibly can helps me to feel and remember when my knee slipping to the side, etc. instead of facing the direction of the foot. Such a struggle to really move the waist right. Many of Dr. Yang's loosening exercises esp from white crane qi gong (great dvd!) help, also practicing the splits (will I ever get there?!?!) and lunges help me feel the waist area - horse stance (ma bu) of course as well (strong frog legs). It's humbling to constantly feel like a beginner but I want to remember how
to move and not lean on my knees!

[pete5770]

I constantly struggle with distributing weight properly in taijiquan. Too often, my knees take the brunt of the work. Doing everything as slowly as I possibly can helps me to feel and remember when my knee slipping to the side, etc. instead of facing the direction of the foot. Such a struggle to really move the waist right. Many of Dr. Yang's loosening exercises esp from white crane qi gong (great dvd!) help, also practicing the splits (will I ever get there?!?!) and lunges help me feel the waist area - horse stance (ma bu) of course as well (strong frog legs). It's humbling to constantly feel like a beginner but I want to remember how
to move and not lean on my knees!

I don't know. In thinking about it again it would seem that the knees are always being stressed
with your weight. Your weight has to go through them into the floor so maybe a deeper stance is just as tough on them as standing erect. Or do the thigh muscles absorb and or release this stress? Or is it that no matter how you stand or walk, weight is weight on the knees? Am I making any sense? Probably not.

[Josh Young]

Angles change stress in terms of shear forces, so the shape of force is important.

The angle of the weight bearing leg beneath the knee seems to relate to this.

Is there a sense of something that tells you enough or just a bit more?

Yes, a few measures and standards are transmitted for this, but they apply to individual physiology and are to general. Alignment is a big part of it, but so is arrival, one must stay "inside" and yet "arrive" or they will "disconnect" and not flow right. I am built funny so my stance for example is a bit odd, I am tall and slim, so my stance is not very wide, being as my shoulders and hips are not very wide, however it is long, seeing as how my legs are rather long. My "arrival" is different than that of my teacher, who is built differently than I am, but for me this was taught as part of push hands.

[pete5770]

Angles change stress in terms of shear forces, so the shape of force is important.

The angle of the weight bearing leg beneath the knee seems to relate to this.

Is there a sense of something that tells you enough or just a bit more?

..... but so is arrival, one must stay "inside" and yet "arrive" or they will "disconnect" and not flow right. ........

Well put. IMHO finding the place that you need to be, for your statue and body, is what practicing the form is all about. A constant search for an ideal place. Always changing. A little bit more here and a little less there. Up a bit, down a bit, no that's not quite it so let's try this.