Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Discuss Taijiquan or other soft styles. Theory, practice and applications. Please stay on topic.

Moderators: nyang, Dvivid, Inga, taiqiman

Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:26 pm

Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar is a move known from Chen style and Shaolin style martial systems.

This move is "Jin Gang Dao Dui"
Translation of it is a very interesting thing.

Jin Gang, while translated as Buddhas warrior attendant is a term meaning indestructible, it is used for Diamond in the Diamond Sutra. Diamand in Sanskrit is Vajra, for this reason the translation of the move is also given as Vajra pestle.

The vajra is not a Chinese weapon, but is a weapon that was employed in China. It is a sacred weapon to Hindu religions, such as Buddhism. Those familiar with the weapon will note that the move "Jin Gang Dao Dui" is conducive to the use of this sacred weapon.

Now why would a Chinese move have Buddhist connotations?
Buddhism is not Chinese.
Why would the move invoke the name of an Indian weapon associated with Buddhism, as well as with Indra?

I will mention that it may be because there are martial methods in TCMA that were transmitted to Chinese culture along side Buddhism and other Hindu religions. There is a tremendous amount of evidence supporting this actually. It is all too easy to forget that there were caste martial systems in India and that Siddhartha was a member of the warrior caste. The association of martial arts with Buddhism is not a Chinese development or innovation, wandering warrior saints are common to Vedic culture and lore and temples of Vedic origination across all of Asia have martial arts aspects to various practices.

Over time we have come to see the vajra as a symbol, it is easy to forget or to ignore that it is and was first and foremost a weapon that was used as one.

However weapons are ill omens in a way, the practice of them has often been shrouded in secrecy and symbolism, much as many martial practices of various cultures take the form of Dance. Sword dances are a good example of this. Real weapons and martial practices became purposefully obfuscated as symbols for practical reasons. At the same time these weapons and their use was preserved by those who maintained them as "symbols"

Jin Gang Dao Dui is a good example of this and relates to the Hindu contribution to TCMA.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby adamfuray » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:56 pm

Josh Young wrote: Jin Gang, while translated as Buddhas warrior attendant is a term meaning indestructible, it is used for Diamond in the Diamond Sutra. Diamand in Sanskrit is Vajra, for this reason the translation of the move is also given as Vajra pestle.


Jin Gang means Diamond King. There are four of them that flank the entrance to Buddhist temples, and act as guardian deities. Why translate it into Sanskrit? Maybe if you are teaching in certain parts of India...


Josh Young wrote:Now why would a Chinese move have Buddhist connotations?
Buddhism is not Chinese.


By the time this was acclimated, Buddhism had been completly integrated in to Chinese society. That is akin to saying that Christianity is not American. Certain religions don't have nationalities.

Josh Young wrote:Why would the move invoke the name of an Indian weapon associated with Buddhism, as well as with Indra?


Taiji is heavily influenced by Shaolin. Shaolin is Buddhist. It is an influence, roughly 10 times removed.


Josh Young wrote:Jin Gang Dao Dui is a good example of this and relates to the Hindu contribution to TCMA.


again, so far removed, it doesn't even vaguely resemble anything Hindu. It would be more accurate to say, "this is a good example of the Shaolin contribution to Taiji."
adamfuray
Forum Specialist
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:18 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:34 pm

adamfuray wrote: Jin Gang means Diamond King. There are four of them that flank the entrance to Buddhist temples, and act as guardian deities. Why translate it into Sanskrit? Maybe if you are teaching in certain parts of India...

It was translated from Sanskrit written language(s) along with most Buddhist teachings that were adopted by China, Burma, Laos, Thailand, Java etc.

Vajrapani is a traditional attendant of Buddha. Considered the protector of Buddha actually, and is also mentioned as being Indra, the King of Gods. Diamond King seems to be a direct reference to this figure.

To the point that the mandarin name for him is Jīngāng shǒu púsà (金剛手菩薩), note Jin Gang... there are multiple attendants for Buddha, however Diamond King is quite specific to a single one of them, who is depicted as the wielder of the Vajra.

again, so far removed, it doesn't even vaguely resemble anything Hindu. It would be more accurate to say, "this is a good example of the Shaolin contribution to Taiji."

I think that a tremendous amount of evidence indicates otherwise.

Indra/Vajrapani is the warrior attendant of Buddha, ergo the Diamond King. His association with Buddha is found in art from all across Asia and India. He is found as a deity in most forms of Buddhism actually, and is about as Hindu as you can get.

He is strongly associated with Shaolin, clearly via a Vedic or Hindu influence.
The Shaolin are said to have credited him with the origination of the staff techniques they used, using the staff in place of the Vajra... again illustrating Hindu influence on Shaolin martial methods.

The attendants of the gate (Nio) are even depicted in Japan with an association with Sanskrit and are regarded as (aspects/emanations) Vajrapani as well.
The evidence speaks for itself quite well.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby adamfuray » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:44 pm

The movement Jin Gang Dao Dui is not Chen Style or Shaolin's hidden secret homage to Hinduism. The same as a Hyundai Sonata has nothing to do with Haydn or Mozart.
adamfuray
Forum Specialist
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:18 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:53 pm

adamfuray wrote:The movement Jin Gang Dao Dui is not Chen Style or Shaolin's hidden secret homage to Hinduism.

Of course it is not secret.
It is quite open, just ignored by many.

Considering the Shaolin credit Vajrapani, a Hindu figure, with the origination of their staff techniques and that all of their saints are Hindu/vedic... it certainly is not homage at all, it is a direct transmission. The Shaolin didn't just invent the methods and then credit a Hindu god with their origination. Why would they do that?

The martial transmission took place alongside the transmission of the doctrine itself, and not just in China, but all across Asia. The evidence for this is indisputable regardless of opinions to the contrary.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby adamfuray » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:10 pm

this move can not be traced to India. You are basing your opinion of it's origins in a name. Please refer back to my car analogy. If you can't name the person or group that specifically handed this to someone else, it is hardly logical to make your claim. i.e. Indiana Jones used a single whip so it must be Taijiquan!!
adamfuray
Forum Specialist
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:18 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:43 pm

adamfuray wrote:this move can not be traced to India. You are basing your opinion of it's origins in a name.

I did not say the move itself can be traced to India.

You don't realize it, but language evidence is a fraction of what I am considering, however it is profoundly significant. Varjapani is Buddhas warrior attendant, the Diamond king. The Shaolin do consider him an important deity, this is far more apt that the Indiana Jones example. The move is a direct reference to this figure, not some coincidence of names. If the Shaolin did not revere the figure, did not credit him with (some of) their martial teachings then you would be right, it would be a coincidence.

You can ignore the evidences, but one does not need a direct claim of who, when and where to illustrate this truth. There is far more than language supporting this.

I will note that the traditional depiction of Vajrapani is in a posture incredibly similar to single whip.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby adamfuray » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:51 pm

it sounds to me like you are saying that Taijiquan owes more credit, than is currently attributed, to Indian culture. I'm saying there is nothing from India that gets even close.
adamfuray
Forum Specialist
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:18 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:06 pm

jingang chu is directly referring to a Vajra.

Jin Gang Quan:
http://youtu.be/oSRzgdC5bfk

This actually makes extensive use of the stance Vajrapani is depicted in as well as several other stances that are from Indian Martial Yoga systems used by warriors and depicted in art well over 2000 years ago.

adamfuray wrote:it sounds to me like you are saying that Taijiquan owes more credit, than is currently attributed, to Indian culture. I'm saying there is nothing from India that gets even close.

And I am saying you are totally wrong about that, there are numerous martial arts in India that are quite a bit like Shaolin methods. Some use marma, which is correlated to meridian pathway methods. The staff methods of Silambam are quite close to those of Shaolin. Many Shaolin stances, found in taijiquan are found in ancient Indian art predating Shaolin.

Kalari has animal forms also, the relation of it to Shaolin is well known to those who have looked into the topic.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby adamfuray » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:10 pm

so we should replace giving credit to Chen Wang Ting with giving credit to India? You cited a staff form and a hole in the ground. What exactly are you getting at?!?? Just come out and say it already!
adamfuray
Forum Specialist
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:18 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:29 pm

adamfuray wrote:so we should replace giving credit to Chen Wang Ting with giving credit to India?

No, we should just not ignore that Indian culture played a role in the development of Chinese martial arts that relate to Shaolin. And not just that, but also Silat, Muay Thai etc. All of which are unique, as are Chinese martial arts, due to the development they received via figures like Wang-Ting.

Muay Thai is a great example of this same thing, they even invoke several Hindu gods in the Wai Khru. We can note that Muay Thai is Thai, but has roots in Indian culture as well. Why ignore this?

You cited a staff form and a hole in the ground.

That is a facile view, I cited whole martial systems that you don't appear to have much familiarity with. There is no need to take offense. Silambam includes a great deal more than staff form, however the resemblance of that art to Chinese martial arts is so strong that some have gone so far as to claim it must have come from China!

Kuttu varisai and Varma Kalai are also worth looking into for this topic.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:47 pm

Vajra-musti is an interesting term, it refers to a martial art.
It means Diamond Fist...

Jin Gang Quan also means diamond fist... and is martial art...
coincidence?

Extremely unlikely.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby adamfuray » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:58 pm

It is rather insignificant to the study of Taijiquan. There are plenty of documented factors that DIRECTLY influenced Taijiquan, that this "fringe" speculation just seems absurd. Chen Wang Ting did not study with an Indian teacher, and he did not read Indian texts when synthesizing his art. Neither did any of his teachers. Lets say you prefer fiction to fact, and assert that Yang did not learn Taijiquan from the Chens. Yang did not have any DIRECT Indian inluence either! This topic belongs in an international martial arts history forum, not a Taijiquan one. And you certanly shouldn't be using a very specific movement from Taijiquan to make this claim. Who is your teacher? Do they know you believe this? I could imagine a legitimate teacher getting a little upset about it.
adamfuray
Forum Specialist
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:18 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:26 pm

adamfuray wrote:It is rather insignificant to the study of Taijiquan.

While you are welcome to have that opinion I strongly disagree with it.
I would agree that it is insignificant in relation to the practice of it, but it is relevant to the study of it to me.
There are plenty of documented factors that DIRECTLY influenced Taijiquan, that this "fringe" speculation just seems absurd.

It isn't speculation at all.
Or rather, what are you claiming is speculative?
We have the same terms involved, the same essential translations, the same figures/gods, the same postures etc.
If anything the only speculative claim in this thread it that Shaolin was not influenced by Vedic teachings.

Chen Wang Ting did not study with an Indian teacher, and he did not read Indian texts when synthesizing his art. Neither did any of his teachers.

I agree, but that is irrelevant.
The Indian influence on Shaolin is as clear as the Shaolin influence on Wang-Ting.

This topic belongs in an international martial arts history forum, not a Taijiquan one. And you certanly shouldn't be using a very specific movement from Taijiquan to make this claim.

I am not using the move to make the claim, I am using it to illustrate the validity of the claim. As I am also using several other forms of evidence including language, Shaolin accounts and history, depictions of warriors and postures in ancient art etc.


Who is your teacher? Do they know you believe this? I could imagine a legitimate teacher getting a little upset about it.

My teacher is Dr. Art Barrett, in regards to Yang style taijiquan. He was taught by the son of King Yu Liang, student of Chen Weiming.

He knows I believe this and isn't bothered at all by it.

If you ask him he will tell you that he doesn't know much about Indian martial arts or for that reason their relationship to Chinese and other Asiatic martial arts.


One can note that the archer posture of Indian martial Yoga systems is found in the Shaolin systems (including jin gang quan) and found in Chinese qigong. There is a lot of evidence that the 8 brocades is also influenced by Vedic teachings.

There is a branch of this topic that deals with Taoists from China who founded martial arts in Japan and transmitted Vajra teachings and Sanskrit writings as well.

And as far as immortal warriors living on mountains and practicing asceticism... that is an extremely common theme in Indian martial arts and lore, as it the use of standing postures as a training method. An incredible amount of correlations between Vedic and Taoist teachings and deities exists.

And lets not forget that Mudras, including for martial arts, also come from India and are not a Chinese invention either. Not speculation, fact.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:21 pm

I just spoke with Art (my main teacher) about this.
He is fluent in Mandarin, has 30+ years experience in taijiquan including in Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, China etc. I'm lucky to have him for a teacher and as a friend.

He told me a lot of martial arts teachers are egotistical and closed minded and would never consider anything like this objectively. They hear or read one thing, regard it as true and then reject all evidence to the contrary because they have made up their minds. He said this was true in general for martial arts instructors of all types in his experience.

He said that it makes sense however, that Indian martial practices influenced Shaolin as well as many other Asian arts. He also said that he does not know much about it, but he is delighted to hear about it and discuss it and does not find it upsetting at all, just totally fascinating.

But then he does have an incredibly open mind and is rather patient and quite intelligent.
He neither agrees with me nor disagrees.

He did note that for the Shaolin to credit Vajrapani with their staff techniques strongly indicates a Hindu influence on Shaolin martial arts. Likewise he notes the influence of Shaolin on Chen and Chen on Yang.
Last edited by Josh Young on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby adamfuray » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:22 pm

and how does this specifically aid you in studying martial arts? Please be very specific. By specific I mean at least one technique, practice method, form, meditation, or text that aids your taijiquan training. This is me saying, "ok, this guy is very passionate about this. I am blown away that it even made it this far, but I am going to play along."
adamfuray
Forum Specialist
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:18 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby Josh Young » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:31 pm

adamfuray wrote:and how does this specifically aid you in studying martial arts?

When I said that I find it relevant to the study, but not the practice, this is in terms of study of martial arts history and not in terms of practice of taijiquan.

However it has strongly benefited my practice, not the theory mind you, but actual methods and teachings related to this topic. I have for example practiced with several forms of Vajra. There are 4 main forms of applications using this weapon;
1 throwing it,
2 driving/lock/joint manipulating with it (Chin na)
3 striking vital points with it (Cavity press)
4 whirling it
knowing this and practicing with the weapon(s) has been quite useful to my taijiquan skill development as has much of my weapons practice.

There is a relationship I have not addressed in this thread of temple dances to martial arts as well, I sought out training in a specific form of temple dance having martial relevance and it provided me with several things I employ to practice martial arts, among them are applications, footwork and specific postures/movements known as the 108 Karanas. Among the things I learned via this are several mudras having martial uses and work very well with Yang style taijiquan jin.

There is more than that, but it really is not relevant to the theme of this thread which is Buddhas warrior attendant, Vajrapani and the relevance of this to Shaolin, which relates to Chen style taijiquan.

However telling you this is worthless, the real evidence is in the skill set I maintain and only those who have trained with me can relate my skill, or lack thereof. My teacher(s) can speak of my skill level, but I cannot. I can say I am not a master... just a student.
Josh Young
Forum DemiGod
 
Posts: 720
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:03 pm

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby adamfuray » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:04 pm

Josh Young wrote:However telling you this is worthless, the real evidence is in the skill set I maintain and only those who have trained with me can relate my skill, or lack thereof. My teacher(s) can speak of my skill level, but I cannot. I can say I am not a master... just a student.


no kidding?
adamfuray
Forum Specialist
 
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:18 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby John the Monkey mind » Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:48 pm

Josh have you read Vajramushti; Martial Arts of India?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vajramushti-Mar ... 0984028102

Its an interesting read as it has a lot about Indian martial postures in Shaolin. Its sad Northern India lost its martial traditions with the Muslim conquests or it would be more obvious.
John the Monkey mind
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:15 am

Re: Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar

Postby wpgtaiji » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:23 pm

adamfuray wrote:
Josh Young wrote:However telling you this is worthless, the real evidence is in the skill set I maintain and only those who have trained with me can relate my skill, or lack thereof. My teacher(s) can speak of my skill level, but I cannot. I can say I am not a master... just a student.


no kidding?

LOL I figured that Yang Lu Chan, himself, wasnt worthy of lacing up Josh's taiji slippers! Only a student? Modesty is next to flattery :P
wpgtaiji
Forum ÜberGuru
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:48 pm

Next

Return to Taijiquan / Tai Chi Chuan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests

cron