Leg Muscles and Right/Left Heel Kick (Yang form)

[fit155]

I have just started to practice the Yang short form. Does anyone know the leg muscles that are used to extend the leg in posture 13 (right heel kick) and posture 15 (left heel kick)? I really need to work on the strength and flexibility of those muscles. Thanks in advance.

[Josh Young]

I use my waist to kick, in our form all the kicks are done with a bit of speed that allows the extension of the leg.

at least in this case it is not the leg muscles that extend or hold the leg, the teachings of others may differ

[Dvivid]

? If you're kicking something, and your leg is outstretched, you are using leg muscles.

In the form practice, you kick very high, for the purpose of stretching the leg. In a real situation, you should only kick low so your opponent can't grab the leg.

[Josh Young]

? If you're kicking something, and your leg is outstretched, you are using leg muscles.

I disagree, i hit without arm muscles all the time and kicking is no different for me. It is not my arms that move my arms with taijiquan, it is my whole body moving as one, even flowing in a manner not unlike water. With the kicks it is the same for me. Using leg muscles destroys my power and speed in my kicks.

In the form practice, you kick very high, for the purpose of stretching the leg. In a real situation, you should only kick low so your opponent can't grab the leg.

This is not taught in my taijiquan. Actually we have applications that are quite old that include some very high kicks, including to the armpit, the back, the throat etc. It is taught that if your leg is grabbed you were kicking too slow and or too predictably.

From the waist a taiji kick is no slower than any taiji strike, at least it should not be. If someone can grab your leg they should be able to grab your arm in any strike. One should be able to kick without visually telegraphing the move, they should also be able to kick high in the same amount of speed that they kick low with because the motion is whole body from the waist, the idea is that the leg is drawn up and in, via the waist and then sent out like an arrow (again via the waist) the distance it travels is the same if it kicks high or low and the speed should be the same.

the power should be such that the kick is unstoppable via any grabbing or blocking, it should be too strong and too fast for na-jin to be effective.
one should be able to kick up to shoulder height with no loss of speed or power, this is very important for specific applications

at least this is what it is like for me, other teachings can vary, but these are very specific and worth sharing

[fit155]

I'm seeing a physical therapist for another issue and asked her about the leg extension. She said in my case it is my hamstrings that are causing me the problem. When I extend my leg to do the heel kick, my leg actually drops down. She says it is because my quads are so much stronger than my hamstrings, and my quads are overpowering my hamstrings during the move, forcing my leg down. She suggests working on both the flexibility and the strength of my hamstrings.

[chh]

I agree with Josh that the important activity for lots of the kicks in the form is elsewhere than in the legs. Muscles in your legs need to be involved in making the kick happen, but power in the kicks, and what makes them taiji kicks, is about the way you connect movement in the bow of the back (or maybe the waist- I haven't thought about that) with the extension of the leg.

Like Dvivid, I don't think of any of the kicks in the Yang long form as being fundamentally higher than the knee, but I often do them higher when practicing, and in an opportune situation I think higher kicks can be a reasonable thing to do. You can definitely incorporate the body into the kick without it being up that high.

I know none of that actually addresses your question, though. A google search suggests that the quadriceps are indeed the muscles that help extend the leg in something like a heel kick. The hip flexors seem like they're at least partly responsible for helping hold the leg up during a deliberate, slow kick like those in the slow form, so it sounds like those might be relevant to the original question.

I guess what I was trying to say initially is that keeping your leg up high during those heel kicks is probably not the central goal in terms of feeling or martial application in a lot of approaches to taijiquan, but I'm also trying to gain some more flexibility and strength specifically to make parts of my form more beautiful, so I think I know where you're coming from

[yeniseri]

The wushu nandu modern Yang style competition form(s) tend toward performance and gymnastic so quadriceps/hamstring group would need individual exercises to strengthen them if one sought to emulate this modern nandu schema. Exercises for hamstring and quadriceps are generally a good investment for stretching and flexibility, nonetheless.

[pete5770]

FWIW I once had a teacher tell me to think of the heel kicks not really as a kicks but more of a push / shove with the heel. You might compare it to the hand pushing something as opposed
to hitting / punching. In any case it has a nice feel to it, this heel "shove", if you will.

[yeniseri]

It is only in the modern Yang application that I actually see demonstrated left/right heel kick as a kick. In older expousre, lifting (raising) is actually a trap to kick forward or backward or redirect a posture to throw, kick someone's leg ( as in hitting shin, moving forward leg back or pushing as in tuishou. I will try to find some examples and link.
I am not saying that one cannot kick but many 'kick' are low basin useful as opposed to high basin!

[Dvivid]

the original post said

I really need to work on the strength and flexibility of those muscles.

So, while I understand the emphasis on whipping power through the limbs from the core, this thread should be about how to stretch and strengthen your leg muscles safely. One of the best ways to do that is train kicking high. With your leg muscles.

Dr. Yang once described Heel Kick as "imagine you are kicking down a door. You need whole-body power." So, its not only a push, it is a forceful application of the entire bottom of the foot, with full body weight and force behind it.

To stretch the hamstrings and lower back, hang like a rag roll ( the entire upper body from the waist up). Keep knees slightly bent in order to protect them from hyperextension. Breathe deep, relax, wait 2 or 3 minutes until burning sensation. Repeat daily.

[pete5770]

I'm going to chime in and say that I tend to "shove" with my heel more than "kick", if that makes any sense? I also try to "shove" higher than the day before. i.e. bring my knee up a bit higher and try and extend the leg more. This is an excellent stretch, at least for me.