Some impressive taiji forms

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Some impressive taiji forms

Postby Josh Young » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:30 pm

ok so the first things to share are the middle frame, sections 1 and 2, from Yang Jian-hou, through Tian Zhaolin, who was one of the subjects of an article i recently posted a link to.

This is the middle frame before Cheng-fu and the transmission of the form does not involve Cheng-fu at all.

1st section:
http://youtu.be/0gtWXB5Kzcc

And i find this to be exquisite taiji, same form second section:
http://youtu.be/eZsYh6O-LYM

And last, but not least, this is being titled the 118 Yang style
http://youtu.be/xhlVnlekTuk
http://youtu.be/SrvHF2ZrI64
http://youtu.be/OXLWni8suK8
And again, same person this is called the 56 spear form!:
http://youtu.be/KUTL85gnB5Q

I wish i knew more about these last two forms, where they came from, but i do find them to be rather impressive
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Re: Some impressive taiji forms

Postby Josh Young » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:11 am

ok, the last two forms are said to have come from a student of Cheng-fu, Li Yaxuan...
i am deeply impressed with the methods shown
here is some writing by Li about push hands:
http://0801.nccdn.net/1_5/008/335/23d/L ... hHands.pdf
some excerpts of his notebook:
http://www.eastwestacupuncture.net/book_notebook.htm

these words are rather enlightened, among the greatest commentaries of the art i have ever encountered!

Softer... i must get softer...
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Re: Some impressive taiji forms

Postby yeniseri » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:38 am

Great forms presentation!

I tend to see the label 'Middle Frame" as part of an era as opposed to how most people view middle frame. Li Yaxuan's era (timeframe of teaching) involved the changes from martail to national treasure period, passing of the use of taijiquan as martial endeavour, 'throwing out of the old, bringing in the new' vision, etc) and there is an appearance of more of Yang style of Luchan i.e. more coiling, more apparent but softer Chen style foot movements, etc when compared to present Chengfu standardization. Tian was a Yang family member (albeit, nephew, I think) so a trend is there for subsequent practitioners to 'embellish'.

I am not too much for forms since I would rather see how the form functions as part of some martial training. Based on form competition and beautiful impressive movements, said forms fall appart when touched by another! It doesn't diminish my vision of impressive movement that is different form the norm!
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Re: Some impressive taiji forms

Postby Josh Young » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:57 pm

Sadly i don't know as much as i would like about the "middle frame" or what the use of the term means per say... the form i was taught specifically was called the "large frame"

I shared the forms and the commentary by Li Yaxuan with my Teacher (Dr. Art Barret) and he commented that it (the commentary) is rather identical to what Chen Wei-ming passed down to Leung King-yu.

here are some quotes I love from it:
What these beginners haven’t yet understood is that if you can give yourself up entirely to relaxation, an amazing power of ‘sensitive emptiness’ naturally emerges that allows you to easily handle anything that comes up. This continues to evolve until it reaches an extreme degree light relaxed power so that your offense becomes unstoppable and your defense is also an attack.

When you first touch hands in ordinary practice, you need to use a very light touch to feel him out, to follow along with him, responding and adapting to all his changes. You mustn’t pose even the slightest resistance...

You body is completely soft and pliable, appearing to be boneless. No matter how your partner comes at you, you seem to be able to absorb or redirect everything, extending and retracting at will, using invisible changes to neutralize him


I love how real taijiquan embodies the philosophy of Taiji/wuji into a martial system!

It is also interesting that the comments about fa-jin are the same as Wei-ming taught, that it can kill easily, without need to target any special points or spots, and that the sign of it is that the person struck bleeds from the mouth and nose...
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Re: Some impressive taiji forms

Postby Josh Young » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:36 pm

Here is another interesting Yang form
http://youtu.be/EQ3R0prVtPc

the transmission here comes from Xu Yusheng, Student of Chen Fake and Yang Jian-hou

interestingly it is said that in 1912 Xu Yusheng was the man who hired Yang Shao-Ho to teach in an institution in Bejing.

The material here is not the form as was transmitted by Cheng-fu, but is an earlier version...
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Re: Some impressive taiji forms

Postby Brian » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:22 am

Hi there...just wondering what you think of this form..attributed to Yang Ban Hou...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrIcXONH ... 6C0585865E
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Re: Some impressive taiji forms

Postby Josh Young » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:29 pm

I like it a lot.
It is an impressive display of skill.

It is a bit controversial, but it is nice.
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Re: Some impressive taiji forms

Postby wpgtaiji » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:51 pm

I have seen a form of taiji done that way before. It takes a LOT of strength and flexibility to do it (obviously :) ) and it may give a reason why one account of Luchan's form has him able to pick a coin off the ground with his mouth in squatting single whip (or snake creeps down).

Thanks for that clip.
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Re: Some impressive taiji forms

Postby caesar » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:11 pm

It looks beautiful...Josh, I'm interested. What makes it a bit controversial?
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Re: Some impressive taiji forms

Postby Josh Young » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:14 pm

The controversy involves content in the line of transmission including form and writings that are not found in any other transmission.
The names involved are Niu Lianyuan and Wu Mengxia.

If I am not mistaken Niu was a student of Ban-Hou and Wu was a student of Niu.

Both of these individuals published material about taijiquan that is not the same as that found in other Yang lines, for this reason some of the content of the published material has been suspected by some to not come from the Yangs but to come from Niu Lianyuan and Wu Mengxia. However the evidences pertaining to this are inconclusive.

I have also heard it said that it lacks the flavor of the Old Yang methods, that can be seen in Wu and Wu-Hao taijiquan, which comes from students of Yang Luchan himself. However this could be seen as a matter of taste...

Here is the primary content of the original text from Niu that is considered suspect
乱环诀 (七言八句)
乱环术法最难通,上下随合妙无穷。
陷敌深入乱环内,四两千斤招法成。
手脚齐进横竖找,掌中乱环落不空。
欲知环中法何在,发落点对即成功。

And for fun here is the google translate translation of it!!!

Arbitrary ring tactic (Seven-eight)
The most difficult to pass arbitrary loop operation method, combined with the wonderful endless up and down.
Trap the enemy in depth chaos ring, 42 tactics into extremely heavy.
Looking into if they had hands and feet together, hands off the chaos ring is not empty.
For what the French ring, hair placement of that success.
Not the best translation by any means.

Here is a site that has a translation and exposition:
http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/RandomCirc ... les_1.html
And of course because of fair use doctrine we may examine the translation they give there:
Random Circles Formula (eight seven-character sentences)

The method of random circles is the most difficult skill to understand and master. When you can integrate them fully with your whole body movement and follow your opponent well, you will find endlessly ingenious uses for them.

f you can entrap the enemy deep within these random circles, then you can successfully use four ounces of force to move a thousand pound force.

Hands and feet arriving at the same time, probing in every direction, your random circles will not fail to ensnarl the enemy.

If you want to know the key to success with random circles, it is about finding the correct point to - release your force and the correct place to do so - in order to throw your opponent down.


Some of the reasons this is suspect is that the grammar and words are a bit divergent than similar teachings in other Yang transmissions. However this does not mean that the teaching is not true. I find it fascinating.
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Re: Some impressive taiji forms

Postby Josh Young » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... AXVV1-nhw#!

What do you make of this?

I notice a lot of forward leaning and the use of force on force, lots of disconnecting and no stick/adhere/listen/follow.

http://youtu.be/AtX_l0dGcbc
Notice the sticky energy, the lack of force on force, it looks a little similar and yet it totally different.
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Re: Some impressive taiji forms

Postby yeniseri » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:35 pm

Josh Young wrote:The controversy involves content in the line of transmission including form and writings that are not found in any other transmission.
The names involved are Niu Lianyuan and Wu Mengxia.

If I am not mistaken Niu was a student of Ban-Hou and Wu was a student of Niu.

Both of these individuals published material about taijiquan that is not the same as that found in other Yang lines, for this reason some of the content of the published material has been suspected by some to not come from the Yangs but to come from Niu Lianyuan and Wu Mengxia. However the evidences pertaining to this are inconclusive.

I have also heard it said that it lacks the flavor of the Old Yang methods, that can be seen in Wu and Wu-Hao taijiquan, which comes from students of Yang Luchan himself. However this could be seen as a matter of taste...

Here is the primary content of the original text from Niu that is considered suspect
乱环诀 (七言八句)
乱环术法最难通,上下随合妙无穷。
陷敌深入乱环内,四两千斤招法成。
手脚齐进横竖找,掌中乱环落不空。
欲知环中法何在,发落点对即成功。

Some of the reasons this is suspect is that the grammar and words are a bit divergent than similar teachings in other Yang transmissions. However this does not mean that the teaching is not true. I find it fascinating.


There are many Yang versions that meet the criteria of sameness and the divergence may be easy to document in some cases or just outrageous in others but it is all good!
Ban Hou and Quanyu studied as close to Yang Luchan's frame as possible with Quanyu actually making the trip to Chenjiaogou and the slight variation of, at least, tuishou, skill, which Yang style appear to lack. The higher scholarly tradition of Wu Family would surely skew the intellectual findings that Yang family may lack therefore bringing more sources of integration plus influence from other martial schools.

Just as "Snake Style Yang Family exists in Hong Kong but in Yang village, they never heard of it, Or Guangping being called Secret Yang Style but quite distinct form present lineage representatives! The beauty of difference and disparity!
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Re: Some impressive taiji forms

Postby Brian » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:01 am

...and here is a form attributed/influenced by Yang Sau Chung (Yang Shou Zhong).....

The guy in white top is Sifu Michael Guen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OGvBRyFLu0&NR=1
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