Tai Chi vs MMA

[Ralteria]

I think it's important to point out that the level of intensity and pressure that a professional MMA fighter trains with on a regular basis is much higher than the level of intensity of 99% of most Taiji players. That includes those who train with fighting in mind.

It's not that one art is more effective than another. It's that MMA fighters are prepped to deal with someone running at full intensity. Most traditional martial artists are not.

And anything can be adapted for a ruleset. It's just a matter of making it work for that platform.

[HumbleTaiji]

Ah yes, the age old question; is this art more B-A than that one...Not to kick the dead horse anymore... but here goes anyway.

Taiji is an internal style MMA is purely and external style. It's pretty well understood that internal styles can take decades of daily practice to develop an impressive level of fighting skill using Taiji principals. However, once mastered, (which very few do) it is spooky effective, stays with you and deepens into your later years. External styles are totally valid, easier to pick up and learn basic self defense, jump into the octagon and battle your little heart out. It's why external styles are always taught to the military. Note that most people who have started off in a school like YMAA have also learned external in the beginning and continually gravitate toward internal as they get older.

So they have totally different learning curves, you'd have to match them appropriately. Too many variables to even speculate; lineage/trainer, hours training, focus of training, physical talent, fighting spirit, instict, etc...

Aside from all of this, there is a spiritual element inherent in Taiji philosophy that tends to keep the real masters private and introspective, to themselves, I know more than a few that are absolutely, scary deadly in the art, but would NEVER show it off on WWE... I mean MMA. ; ) One in particular, a Canadian I know and have seen in action and have trained with, is a strict taoist, an eccentric, and had been known to travel to teach Navy Seals in the US, and he even humbly says that HIS teacher (even more eccentric) is the scary one. That says a lot right? They finish a fight in seconds, no tap-outs.

Enough rhetoric for now!

T

[skaters]

Tai Chi is undisputable!

[caesar]

I'm a novice in taijiquan, but used to train Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (Ninjutsu) before. Many people claim the art is internal, and I don't think there are any students from taijutsu having themselves in UFC, or or any kind of competition the MMA people usually go to.

I had and still have some friends who went to MMA and BJJ kind of arts while I trained ninjutsu. They wanted to train and spar with me and sometimes we tried...the problem was that with their rules, they could often beat me. But how do you even try to "spar" with a person who comes from a sport art where there is an aim to "win"?

The art I trained, was deadly, the katas were short and meant for real life situations were you really are in deep dren. Having to fight many opponents same time forces you to forget every kind of kick or punch or "shoot" (from BJJ) that are typical for MMA people. Instead a kick to the balls, knees, an open palm strike to throat, to eyes, using your nails, any kind of tool you can find from your pocket to get out of the situation alive, using the opponents clothing against him...were the kind of things that were trained.

Now how do you compare these kinds of arts, martial arts to MMA where there's the simple (and for my opinion, stupid) aim to get the opponent knocked out in a ring (with no real danger), or having him in some sort of BJJ -lock on ground (which would mean on street, the opponents friends come and kick you in the head)

And how am I supposed to try and compare my art against such sort of people? "Whoops, I just dodged your punch and stuck my middle finger into your eye and turned you into an eunuch with my left knee strike to your balls." The students of internal arts usually understand this and avoid any kind of competition or place where people pump themselves up in gyms to get a steel kind of (clumsy) body to be undefeated...in a ring.

External MMA fighters might have their time and highlights when they are in their best ages and get the glamour of being the king in the ring with rules...but when they get older and they notice they no longer have the time, effort and possibility to keep themselves as fit as they need to, for doing their art, an internal arts trainer still trains and learns the applications to the real life situations.

Another thing about MMA-arts...knive, baseball, or the worst, a gun assaults? MMA-fighter will be in trouble when suddenly their ring meets the real life, the real streets, and their "philosophy" of beating the other one up and getting the ego boost serves no good. I would have felt so sorry seeing an MMA-fighter to really test his skills against the teachers in ninjutsu, and I believe the same goes for taichiquan, baguazhang etc etc.

Why doesn't this usually happen? Because the internal arts masters usually don't have this idiotic ego-need of testing their skills against MMA-people who train to win, not to learn life. And perhaps, in a ring, with the rules, with the MMA-fighter getting his/hers proper warm-up needed they would still get the internal marts master down with a knock out...so what? Doesn't proof anything else than that in the ring they have their time.

Here are also a few examples...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQFFpA0C4LU <- kung fu against mma
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W_zqK635dQ <- viewpoints against a grabbler.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4 <- undisputed evidence of tai chi being a perfect art even inside a ring.

[brer_momonga]

That's a very interesting question caeser, "How do you ever try to 'spar' with a person who comes from a sport where is an aim to 'win?'"

MMA to the layperson looks more like american gladiators than an effective and efficient application of techniques to end confrontations as peacefully as possible. To the world, then, MMA is the clear winner. Can a taijiquan practicioner defeat a MMA in a ring? The answer should be, "Who cares?"

I don't actively avoid MMA, it's just not in my orbit. Their websites look like irritating car commercials to me. That likely contributes to why I'm not drawn to it. I just assume it attracts similar characters to those of the Cobra Khan students in the original Karate Kid and the average American as a spectator.

I think martial arts will always have this struggle: it is easy to find aggressive black belt academies and Taijiquan studios that teach either lavender-scented new age meditation or geriatric exercise. Finding Kung Fu and Tai Chi that practices somewhere in the middle of those poles is usually hard to find. Luckily, we have YMAA and other hidden gems.

This problem is not limited to the martial arts world. It is, however, an indicator for a deeper problem in our society especially in politics and in corporations. Reactionary behavior is easier to find than calm and deliberate action. I see people thrown under the bus at work every day in an effort to make problems disappear.

Is the silent and, at times, invisble student who practices slowly and steadily more proficient in his art than the one who bulks up, laughs at others he considers inferior, and values over everything else, as you said caesar, "being king in the ring with rules" ? If so, how can he rise in the professional world?

In some ways it seems like the slow road of taijiquan puts us behind those who are grabbing for opportunities and ready to ruin anyone in their path to success. This is not to say, of course, that students of taijiquan generally lack ambition or a spirit of competition. I'm interested in how taijiquan can help us deal with these types of real problems in the world.

[caesar]

Can a taijiquan practicioner defeat a MMA in a ring? The answer should be, "Who cares?"

"Who cares?" is just the answer I myself like. I remember doing karate and taekwondo as a kid, very competing sports. I had no clue of inner arts. Karate and TKD fed the side of me who wanted to compete and get success in life. I did hard work at school and had ambition to be great, evenings I went to training and the same philosophy of comparing myself to others was there. I was lucky to get injured in TKD so that I had to find something else...

I started training Choy Le Fut with Qi Gong exercises. It was the first art which brought self discovery thoughts to me. But for me, CLF still felt very "effort needing" with all the muscle training and sanda sparring with gloves and aim to win. I still loved it that time.

I was depressed when our CLF school broke up for various reasons...later I discovered how lucky I was again because then I went to (for my opinion) an even softer art, ninjutsu...with no competition and the philosophy of surviving and the soft beating hard. Well, for various reasons I stopped the art and was again depressed for a long time...again I feel now that I'm lucky for that, because it forced me to keep searching and I ended up in taijiquan only a while ago...but already, and finally I feel like home, more home than ever.

All this time on my path I've had less things in common with MMA-fighters and the competing world outside there. I just quit a very respected school...my feelings told me that it was more my ego which wanted to study there, not the real me inside, who wants to enjoy life and take it easy. Rings, winnings, beating, gym training, MMA...symbolizes the opposite to me.

In some ways it seems like the slow road of taijiquan puts us behind those who are grabbing for opportunities and ready to ruin anyone in their path to success. This is not to say, of course, that students of taijiquan generally lack ambition or a spirit of competition. I'm interested in how taijiquan can help us deal with these types of real problems in the world.

I have the same question on my mind...I think soft arts affected a lot to my decision to once again stop something which would've brought me success, money, and a respected position in society...instead I'm now an unemployed, not respected social bum again...LOVE IT!

Although I'm quite lucky I live in a country where it's possible to be unemployed and still be able to pay for the taijiquan classes.

I also believe that if I had continued the school while doing tai chi...I might have had some cool self discovery at some point about being relaxed even in a competing, challenging, judging workaholic scene...and I know a lot of people actually live like that and claim they find a balance...I just chose different.

I somehow think that the question..."can taijiquan practioner beat MMA-fighter" is a nice and interesting topic...but in the end...can I defeat him? Could I get success and effort in society in general? Would it also be possible to me to defeat MMA with softness...be the king of the ring? Perhaps...perhaps not...but as brer momonga said: Who cares?