taijiquan?

[lilman]

What is taijiquan?

I first started interest in taiji after seeing the movie twin warriors with jet li. I didn't have a teacher and no way to find one, so I studied from books alone. I learned of the 13 powers, Taoist theory and mythology, differences in theory and
Possibilities. Then I practiced with my first teacher, and thought I was learning more. I ended up teaching his students from what I learned in books he didn't know. Finally I met my current teacher whom taught me things I never read about
Or learned. I am learning about aspects I never knew existed. Dr Yang said in one of his books the art is lost. From what I am learning and what I see, I believe it.

I believe the quan aspect is slowly disappearing. I never read anything about how to develop the unbendable arm for lack of a better term, or how to send chi into your opponent, the secret of circles, secrets such as never look down is neglected,
You can even see Dr Yang himself look down in pics and videos. So the question is are these secrets lost, or is taijiquan no longer quan at all?

My teacher teaches taijiquan as a dirty fighting art. Every movement is meant to kill or break something or end the fight. There's groin shots, eye gouging, and deception which lacks in the available info today. It seems the focus now is competition
Health and longevity only. All this comes naturally from practicing it as a martial art, yet its not taught as such so its dying out. The secrets are being lost. Even the secrets and applications from the chi gong are. Not being taught. The traditional chi gongs
Such as 18 and wuji have martial applications and develop power. How is it this information can become mainsteam again where combat is no longer necessary, but the benefits well outreach what is taught today. It should not take 10 years to master taiji.
Hopefully by the end of this year I can be certified to teach and make a difference in the taiji communiity.

I am sure many people done agree with what I say about taijiquan, but it truly is an aspect that's lost that should be further researched instead of forgotten. I also believe the secrets should be freely shared and not hidden from the students so they can survive.

[Dvivid]

Good post.

Yes, Taijiquan really deals with striking points especially when they are "vital", meaning at the time of day they inflict the most damage.

But, I think there is a movement now to preserve the martial aspects of Taijiquan, and it is actually on the rise. When Dr Yang was first writing in the 1980's about the martial aspects of taijiquan, it was unheard of in the West.

Look nowadays, there are all these forums and blogs dedicated to small groups of people interested in preserving the martial side. I agree there is still concern, but some momentum has started.

(As an aside, you should really watch the Chinese version of that film, "Tai Chi Master". The "Twin Warriors" version changes the dialogue so much the original meaning is lost in some places.)

[lilman]

Lol that's true with many movies.

What research does Dr yang use to maintain the martial side? My teacher taught me some secrets that seam neglected, at least in his books. Is thee any way of direct contact? If so can you send me a personal email through here? I would Luke to ask some questions.

[Dvivid]

Hi, Post any questions you have for Dr Yang here, and we'll get them answered so everyone can benefit.

I think your 'loss of Qi when you look down' theory might be overstated a bit. One should have a sense of enemy, and keep eyes focused there.

I think his publications since the 1980's speak for themselves, as far as his research:

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/tai-chi-dvd-book

[Josh Young]

My teacher would say that it is good to have many teachers and travel the world to find them. He would expect you to see that many of the taiji is this or taiji is that claims are just marketing tools for making money.

Be very wary of instructors of schools who claim to have the true teaching while all others are untrue or worse yet "incomplete"

The unbendable arm is considered the unremarkable trick by some including myself. Much of the chi related stuff is hogwash to me, not all of it but a fair portion. I think that emphasis upon chi by many has been a major reason that the martial gets neglected. Chi is important but should not be the magic catch phrase it has become, too many people conflate it with the "force" of starwars.

I don't mean to offend though my opinion is strong. Please forgive the direct honesty of my words.

I have many questions for Dr. Yang.
Question #1
\What do you think of the idea of a kinetic wave of energy as a type of chi?
Example, you could be in contact with someone and then use a tremble motion, this motion causes a wave of kinetic force to be propagated from the dan-tien to the root and back into the duifang. Of course without the root this doesn't work the same way. What is your opinion regarding the idea that this kinetic wave is a type of chi, and thus to issue or transmit it is to issue or transmit chi.

Part of this idea is that most attacks use a wave of kinetic force, often being a fist or a kick, if this force is channeled and propagated it cannot disperse in the body and can be directed back at the duifang via a circular motion.

To issue a kinetic wave via the body there does not need to be a strong visible motion, by being relaxed properly a small internal motion causes the wave to be generated and propagated forward. If we place our hands on our lower belly and laugh or say "ha" loudly we can feel this wave of force, though in this case it isn't being transmitted.

This is the kinetic wave theory. I find it very consistent with the teachings of the taiji classics and the definition of chi. I am not saying that other types of chi don't exist, just that this kinetic wave is a type of chi. More important though is that to use this kinetic wave the abdomen and body must be integrated into a single function unit with no disconnected parts.

In form practice the momentum of the kinetic wave can be conserved so that the power and momentum of the opening movement is carried through gently to the end of the form. This requires a flowing motion and not the incremental motion that has become very common in some peoples taiji form.

It relates to push hands as well, when pushed there is a kinetic wave, by accepting it and redirecting it( with circular motion among other aspects) we learn to use the force and power of attacks against the attacker.

I call this the kinetic wave theory of chi and it is an integral part of my taijiquan. It requires conscious effort, thus the mind or yi must lead the wave or chi. it requires no disconnected part of the body. It also relates to the drum analogy in the TJQ classics.

I feel I have elaborated enough on this for the moment, but I should add that this theory does not contradict the idea of biophysical and metabolic energy as a type of chi as well.

[lilman]

Josh, techniques like the innendable arm are simple to learn and may be considered unremarkable,
but I used it on many occasions to stop a chin na attack and reverse it. It is very effective. Also very
effective against Jiujitsu and muy Thai common techniques. Plus it is part of traditional taijiquan. As far
As hitting without touch and stealing chi, its possible. My teacher does it and teaches it.

My questions for Dr yang or YMAA,

My teacher teaches us to never look down. The taiji classics state the eyes look forward into infinite. My teacher says you never look down because your chi devends, and since your focused down, its an open invite to a downward hit to the head, or a quick also to the face or forhead to distract and move in for the kill. Does YMAA teach this?

Do you practice or teach the innendable arm?

Do you teach the taiji 18 chigong and the applications?

I noticed Wudang added to YMAA, do you teach wuji and the martial secrets?

Do you teach how to push chi out of the body when you practice the forms?

Does Dr yang teach dim Mak?

There's more but I can't think of them at this time.

[Josh Young]

Josh, techniques like the unbendable arm are simple to learn and may be considered unremarkable,
but I used it on many occasions to stop a chin na attack and reverse it. It is very effective.

I am not saying it isn't effective body technology, I find it easy though and related to physics, not chi.

As far as hitting without touch and stealing chi, its possible. My teacher does it and teaches it.

Can he do it to people other than his students? Many of the people who can do this to their students fail against strangers and other martial artists. There is a ton of no-touch knockout fraud out there, they are easy to spot once you pit them against a good Gracie stylist, they are the ones bleeding unconscious on the mat after a few seconds. I've seen this too many times to give credit to any teacher who can use no-touch chi methods on their students. George Dillman is a good example of this type of fraud, but others exist in every style of martial art including taijiquan.

In my school we have tradition about where to look: the passenger stays with the cart. It does not say don't look down or up, or forward or anything like that, it teaches not to disconnect with the vision. In the by the numbers form we follow much of the movements with the eyes, note that one of the directions is "look right" and the other is "beware left" hard to do this if you are looking in any one direction.

I was first exposed to the "unbendable arm" via aikido, where they even use that as a term. What is the mandarin term or saying for this jing/energy?

Isn't dim-mak a Cantonese term? Aren't most taiji terms mandarin?

[lilman]

My teacher atuple my chi the first day met him. With no related conversation, he had me out my arms out in front of me. He asked me to resist and tried to push my hands down. He couldn't. He stepped back and made some hand gestures. I felt the chi come off me like steam from a pot of boiling water0to him. The second time was harder, the third I couldn't resist. Then he gave my chi back. With new students he also issually does brush knee about 3 feet away. You can feel the chi moving through you. He also uses chi to heal by giving energy, some people he never even spoke with. I'm well aware thee are hypnotists and liers out there. My teacher is the real deal.

Sorry if my terms are wrong. I don't pay a lot of stock on words, but on what I know.

[Josh Young]

From the 3rd printing (1989) of Advanced Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming, which by the way has a foreword by Jou Tsung-Hwa who wrote some nice books on TJQ as well.


1 Barehand
a tai chi solo sequence
b applications from solo sequence
c fast tai chi training
d still meditation
e chi circulation training
f jing training
g push hands and its applications
h tai chi fighting set and deeper martial applications
i tai chi free pushing hands and sparring
2 Tai chi sword (jian)
a tai chi sword solo sequence
b chi enhancement and extension training
c martial applications
d tai chi sword matching forms
e tai chi sword sparring
3 tai chi saber (dao)
a tai chi saber solo sequence
b martial applications
c tai chi saber matching forms
d tai chi saber sparring
4 tai chi spear and staff
a individual spear and staff martial techniques
b spear and staff sticking-matching practice
c long weapons sparring
5 tai chi ball
a listening and understanding jing training
b adhere-stick jing training
c two person tai chi ball training
6 tai chi ruler:
Unknown to author
(note that what is now depicted as a taiji ruler is nothing like the taiji rulers found in museums and old weapon collections. )

And the training sequence Dr. Yang gave back then (original writing of this was in 1987, I wonder if he would revise alter add or remove anything now)
1 understanding the fundamental theory of tai chi chuan
2 relaxation, calmness, and concentration practice
3 breath training
4 experiencing and generating chi
5 chi circulation and breathing
6 still meditation
7 fundamental stances
8 breath coordination drills
9 fundamental moving drills
10 solo tai chi chuan
11 analysis of martial applications of sequence
12 beginning of tai chi push hands
13 fundamental forms of tai chi jing training
14 hen and ha sound training
15 fast tai chi chuan
16 advanced tai chi pushing hands
17 advanced tai chi jing training
18 chi expansion and transportation training
19 martial applications of tai chi pushing hands
20 free pushing hands
21 tai chi fighting set
22 tai chi free fighting

I note that the general sequence he gives lacks many of the particulars in the earlier list including the weapons material.

I thought that this would give a decent initial impression of the detail and methods Dr. Yang utilizes in taijiquan training. I am curious if the lists have been conserved since they were written 20 years ago.

I find that words are very important, if you place stock in what you know and you don't place stock in words you should not use words because you then claim to not know them.

Fraud is often evidenced by bad terminology, like : dim mak kata, a combination of Cantonese and Japanese terms pertaining to a sequence invented by Erle (of the WTBA) and passed off by many as genuine CMA material when it isn't. When people invent things they must invent new terms, borrow other terms, or invent new meanings for terms.

Your teacher as you portray him is not someone I would care to learn from. Learn what you can from him, but keep an open mind.

[lilman]

I do apologize you feel that way. My teacher is definitely worthy to teach me. He is an ordained taoist and Buddhist. He trained in sanfrancisco and mt Wudang with Ark Yue Wong and Master Li. He is teaching me stuff people like Dr Yang and. Jou Tsung Hwa say are lost.. He teaches for combat and proven he can fight. My teacher is no joke. He can touch you from across the room. I cennot prove anything to you without you being here. I know what I know and my teacher knows a lot more than me. So other than leading to an argurment' ill leave the subject alone with some quotes from the Tao te ching which you should be aware of if your studying for spiritual cultivation.

I have heard it said that one who excels in safeguarding his own life does not meet with rhinoceros or tiger when traveling on land nor is he touched by weapons when charging into army. Thee is nowhere for the rhino to pitch its horn, there is nowhere for the tiger to place its claws, there is nowhere for weapons to lodge its blades. Why is this so? Because there is no realm of death for him.

I know the enemy yet the enemy does not know me.

One who excels as a warrior does not appear formidable. One who excels in fighting is never roused in anger. One who excels in defeating his enemy does not join issue. One who excels in employing others humbles himself before them. This is known as the virtue of non contention. This is known as making use of the efforts of others. This is known as matching the sublimity of heaven.

And just to help you with your spiritual journey, if you practice the Tao take this to heart.
The way that way that can be spoken of us not the constant way. The name that can be named is not the constant name.

The whole world recognizes the beautiful as the beautiful, yet this is only the ugly. The whole world recognizes the good as the good, yet this is only the n. This something and nothing produce each other, the difficult and easy complement each other, the long ang the short offset each other, the high and the low incline towards each other. Therefore the sage keeps to the deed of taking no action and practices the teaching that uses no words.

The most submissive thing in the world can ride roughshod over the hardest. That which is without substance entering that which has no crevices. That is why I know the benefit of resorting to no action. The teaching that uses no words, the benefit of resorting to no action, these are beyond the understanding of all but a few in the world.

The best student hears of the way, and it asaudiosly. The middle student hears of the way, and as soon as they have a glimpse of it, it is lost. The lowest student hears of the way and laughs. If they didn't laugh it would not be the proper way.

[Josh Young]

I have heard it said that one who excels in safeguarding his own life does not meet with rhinoceros or tiger when traveling on land nor is he touched by weapons when charging into army. Thee is nowhere for the rhino to pitch its horn, there is nowhere for the tiger to place its claws, there is nowhere for weapons to lodge its blades. Why is this so? Because there is no realm of death for him.

I use the shambhala translation myself, that one has the last line saying" Because there is no room for death in him"

I know the enemy yet the enemy does not know me.

Listening jing and cold jing, trained by push hands.

One who excels as a warrior does not appear formidable. One who excels in fighting is never roused in anger. One who excels in defeating his enemy does not join issue. One who excels in employing others humbles himself before them. This is known as the virtue of non contention. This is known as making use of the efforts of others. This is known as matching the sublimity of heaven.

The matador never pits his strength against the bull directly, this is the rule of bullfighting.

The way that way that can be spoken of us not the constant way. The name that can be named is not the constant name.

Makes perfect sense given what dao is.

The whole world recognizes the beautiful as the beautiful, yet this is only the ugly. The whole world recognizes the good as the good, yet this is only the n.

My version says when the whole world recognized beauty as beauty this is in itself ugliness. It means one size does not fit all, or rather that subjectivity is a consistent feature of living beings.

This something and nothing produce each other, the difficult and easy complement each other, the long ang the short offset each other, the high and the low incline towards each other. Therefore the sage keeps to the deed of taking no action and practices the teaching that uses no words.

There is the saying as above so below. This relates to the 3 harmonies of taijiquan, hands and feet, elbows and knees, shoulder and hips. The idea isn't actually a lack of action, it is a lack of wasted or unneeded action. It also has to do with inaction being linked to action, just like high being linked to low. A path of inaction is a path of action and vice versa.

The most submissive thing in the world can ride roughshod over the hardest. That which is without substance entering that which has no crevices. That is why I know the benefit of resorting to no action. The teaching that uses no words, the benefit of resorting to no action, these are beyond the understanding of all but a few in the world.

Water breaks stone because it has no mind of its own (the water)
it is submissive, flowing and relaxed, yet it is able to topple buildings. This does not pertain to words the way you seem to be implying, for example the dao de jing is written with words, so there is a use for them, but a more profound aspect under them having to do with what mind actually is.

The best student hears of the way, and it asaudiosly. The middle student hears of the way, and as soon as they have a glimpse of it, it is lost. The lowest student hears of the way and laughs. If they didn't laugh it would not be the proper way.

My version says that when the wise hear the dao they put it into practice, when the ordinary person hears it they waver between belief and unbelief, and when the fool hears it they laugh. Yet if they did not laugh it would not be the dao.

This is because the dao cannot be grasped with thoughts or words, it simply is.

How developed are your teachers psychic powers?

[lilman]

Thee not psychic powers. Just chi and yi. He says he can touch someone from 3 blocks away. The furthest I felt was about 10 feet. He says why waist energy.

[Dvivid]

Hi

I'll just interject here, to answer the couple questions that didn't answer themselves in your conversation:

1. kinetic wave = fa jin? You answered your own question, but this article discusses it at length.
http://www.ymaa.com/articles/generating-jin

Dim Mak is Dian Mai (pressing primary qi channels). After careful consideration, Dr. Yang chose to not teach it widely, and to not publish on the subject, because it can lead to serious injury and death. Some vital points are occasionally mentioned in his chin na series:
http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/dvd/external

As far as his 1980's curriculum, I think that is fairly dated, and you can see a revised overview of the curriculum here:
http://www.ymaa.com/training

At YMAA there is an emphasis on 'sense of enemy' regarding the eyes, so if you are engaged in a sequence or a sparring situation, yes, you would not look down.

We don't practice the 'unbendable arm', but sure there are some YMAA people with unbendable arms, aka peng. I would suggest this is a combination of ideal physical and energetic alignment.

Dr. Yang does teach Taiji qigong, but these don't have applications as such, since they are for developing softness, connectivity, circulation, and body conditioning for taijiquan practice:
http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/tai_chi_DVD/internal/taiji_qigong_DVD

The Wudang arts are not part of the YMAA curriculum. That is a title published by YMAA Publishing. But, of course wuji and martial applications are part of any traditional taijiquan study.

Hope this helps.

[Josh Young]

Indeed why waste energy?

I was asking about psychic powers, not the chi stuff you mentioned.
Different stuff, different tests, can't fake it.

[lilman]

Dvivid, wuji chigong has martial applications. So does the taiji 18 movement chigong. I would like to show you sometime. Maybe ill try to do some videos for myspace or something.

What do you mean by psychic powers? How can you fake touching someone with chi without hypnosis? How can you hypnotize without long conversation or any conversation at all?

[Josh Young]

Is that wudang 18 the form put together by the Wushu group?
Where does it hail from?

I don't believe that hypnosis in involved in chi transmission fraud. But on the other hand one does not need audio cues to hypnotize. I am not saying your teacher isn't the real deal, just that to me the real deal has nothing to do with touching people without touching them and stuff like that.

Advanced listening skills can develop what seems like psychic powers, not like mind reading but like a non-verbal/non-visual component to sensing a duifang,

[Dvivid]

Lilman - YMAA schools and YMAA Publishing have a focus on traditional forms, meaning the original versions of sequences that can be traced back to the originators of the particular style.

Notice in our catalog we have the Yang 108 sequence, referencing Yang, Ban-Hou, the Chen Lao Jia Yi Lu sequence, the first of the Chen forms, and now the Wudang 108 sequence...these forms are hundreds of years old.

The only modernized forms we have are for instance the Simplified 24 and 48 which are the standardized forms put forth to popularize tai chi in the 1950's and 1970's, and then we've also published some health-oriented forms created by other authors, such as Sunrise Tai Chi.

I don't doubt your 18 form has martial apps: all taijiquan movements should. Yes, please post videos online so we can see.

PS - you're mixing Chinese transliteration styles:

Chi Kung = is the older wade-giles way of translating.

Qi Gong = is the more recently accepted pinyin translation.

Chi-Gong is an incorrect mixture.

Take care.

[lilman]

lol now I see what your saying Josh. Thank you. An example of those powers,
even though it sounds dumb, all the students went to go watch kungfu panda
together. My teachers main style is hung ga which contains taiji xin Yi, bagua,
Shaolin, and its own forms. From shaolin its the 5 animals, snake, tiger, monkey,
Crane, leopard and it also contains mantis acd drunken boxing. Never seeing the
movie before he could tell us what they would do next.

Also when he shows applications or how to react, it does feel as if he knows what your about to do before you do it. Again something that has to be experienced personally.

The taiji 18 qigong is not related to Wudang or wushu. It has also been practiced hundreds of years. Wuji which did come from Wudang, is even older. I never seen the qigong in Dr Yangs books accept in his books. Not saying their not old, just no other reference.

Thank you dvivid. I was aware. Just typing on a cell not a comp, so it doesn't recognize pin yin.

[lilman]

In response to what I just wrote, I spoke to my teacher about the ymaa. Qigong he said it looks like the traditional just missing some things. He also added movements from the form to replace others. He said it looks like he did that to make someone happy, ie his teacher. But similar results from what we learn and teach.

[lilman]

On the psychic powers thing, I also spoke with my teacher on that. He started showing me a qigong from Mt Wudang that builds those powers. Some examples he gave me was once he saw a car and said this guy is going to get in a wreck. Sure enough as they turned the corner, it happened. Also you can tell what an pponent is going to do, before they do it. And when you do this qigong, animals are drawn to you. When you reach high levels, if you practice around dogs, they howl like wolves.