Dr.Yang's mastery

[martial artist]

Hello people) I'm not sure this is the right place for this topic, but anyway. Heard a quite influential baguazhang practitioner say that Dr.Yang is "an amateur in gong fu- wushu, who received some knowledge in Taiwan and then moved to the states to sell it. His books and dvds should only be consuted by beginners and even then it's better to consult authentic sources of information". I have met Dr.Yang on more then one occation and just can't agree with this. But the problem is that this person is quite influential, translates chinese texts and all. So what d'you people think?

[darth_freak]

well maybe he's got a grudge against Master Yang.
Or maybe he is a real true deep master and master Yang is an amateur compared to him. It may be possible! But if so that guy would really really really really kicks bottom!
Does he have some more arguments? What's his name? I'd like to see what he does!! (honestly!)

[Inga]

Yes, I am also not sure this is the right place for this topic. I think that posting this on Yang's Martial Arts Association forum is going to yield pretty strong support for Master Yang. You do not mention who is saying that Master Yang is an "amateur compared to him". If he is so proud of his accomplishments, you should not be shy to mention who this is. Furthermore I wonder at your logic for asking this. If you feel Master Yang's guidance is sound based on your own experience and you know others here are going to echo it, it seems a bit mute. Are you looking for the source of a grudge, as Xavier mentions? I think if you want to collect a wider range of opinions you should post this question on a general martial arts forum, rather than Master Yang's. Your question has an air of "my dad is bigger 'n your dad" and I agree with Xavier, we need more specific details. No one is going to deny there are individuals out there who claim to be the best. That is pretty self evident. There are plenty of martial artists who have skills and talents equal to Master Yang. I have heard Master Yang say he is not physically proficient in all areas, but his knowledge is extensive and rich, I would trust that he knows what he is talking about. Master Yang has followed martial arts since he was a boy, and has had a lifetime encountering Masters who have trained him, taught him and now they consult with him. He did not become internationally known, accepted and respected by being "an amateur in gong fu". Finally I would say that my understanding is that Master Yang purposely does not make it a rule to dissemiate very high level information in his publications, they are designed to augment basic and intermediate level training and to introduce individuals to the arts. If one wants to make progress and become skilled than one must train with a genuine and qualified instructor, it is impossible, I feel, to become an expert from only reading books and using a dvd. They are excellent resources, wonderful guides, I have many of Master Yang's and others' texts and I refer to them regularly, but I would never use them alone. And I would not trust a book that told me I could become a Master just by reading and using it.

[Dvivid]

"martial artist" -

Dr. Yang was deemed a master of the styles that he studied by his teachers after many years of study. It must be someone very qualified to second-guess the judgement of Master Cheng, Gin Gsao and Master Li, Mao-Ching, who himself was student of Han, Ching-Tan.

To insult Dr. Yang is to insult these masters as well. You are correct to disagree with this mysterious Baguazhang practitioner.

And, for the record, as a testament to his humility, to this day Dr. Yang does not refer to himself as "master".

[martial artist]

Thank you all for answering.
to darth freak: I think you're right he's this really deep true master. I don't want to tell you his name because really it's not important. Besides that would make me no better than him, right?
To Inga: my reason for aking this on the YMAA forum is this: this guy is a friend of my teachers' and many people actually respect him. So when he said this about Dr.Yang I didn't agree. But many people who were with me at that time did believe him. Unfortunately I don't know Dr.Yang well enough, although I have met him a few times, so I started him doubts and second thoughts. Well now, thanks to you people, my confidence in Dr.Yang has returned. I will now continue this discussion with the guy.
To Dvivid: I think this might also have something to do with the PRC- Taiwan problem, since Dr.Yang is from Taiwan and the mysterious bagua guy's teachers are from the continent. I have no doubt that Dr.Yang earned his knowledge.
I will try to find a video of this guy. But from what I have seen, he doesn't live up to his reputation.
Thak you again,
Peter

[martial artist]

Darth freak: his main arguments are that the "emei" style of bagua doesn't exist, that the "emei baguazhang" book is a fraud and that instead of taiji Dr.Yang demonstrates White Crane

[Dvivid]

I am responding mainly for the benefit of YMAA students who may not know the answers to these two questions raised by Peter, the martial artist.

1. The Emei style of Baguazhang is from Emei mountain where Grandmaster Liang Shou Yu was raised, and where he started training at the age of six with his renowned grandfather, the late Liang, Zhi-Xiang. He is a master of Baguazhang and that book was based on his knowledge. Dr. Yang helped him to write the book because he was able to do so in English.

To call that book "a fraud", is to now question Grandmaster Liang's qualifications, and those of Liang, Zhi-Xiang. You can't be serious.
http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/authors/liang_shou-yu

2. white crane/taijiquan:
Dr. Yang studied Shaolin Long Fist (hard style), White Crane (soft/hard), and Taijiquan (soft) with several masters for many years. When he first came to America in the 70's, he was an athletic young guy, and his focus was in the external arts. His taiji reflected his extensive Shaolin training. This is when this rumor started.

In the 35 years since then, he has increasingly focused on refining his taijiquan, and researching all family styles and the classic poetry used to hand them down. He has humbly continued to study, train, research, ponder, and write in order to gain a deeper understanding. Few people in modern times have made the effort to trace taiji back to its roots, and attempt to preserve the martial aspects of taiji for the future. That has been a part of Dr. Yang's mission to raise the standard of the arts in the West.

There is no correct 'one way' of taiji. The art is alive.

In my personal opinion, Dr. Yang's taijiquan is very beautiful, powerful, and martial taiji.

Have you seen it?

http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/tai-chi-dvd-book

(Also, in my opinion): Unlike most, his book on taiji theory is not a repetition of dozens of books already published over the last 100 years. Many of his theories in fact go against commonly-held views, which has made his taijiquan theory book controversial. But, he arrived at his theory through decades of practice, study, and open-minded research from both eastern and western perspectives, and I think it speaks for itself.

http://www.ymaa.com/files/ISBN432SampleText.pdf

[darth_freak]

Also about white crane taiji, Master Yang says that his knowledge of white crane helped him to understand taiji. So his taiji is definitly influenced by white crane but it's still taiji in essence.

[yat_chum]

"Criticism comes easier than craftsmanship."
Zeuxis (~400 BC), from Pliny the Elder, Natural History

[jfraser]

Last winter when I was waiting in a local park in Shenyang for my Shirfu to come and teach me, there was about 15 or 20 Chinese men tussling around doing "push hands" There was a mixture of Sun style, Chen style, Yang style, etc. And they were trying to win over each other.
They asked me to participate, but I declined, because the best push hands learning is not from competition, but from pushing with a real expert, and LEARN how. My last competition in with a different teacher, in Nantong University's Wu Shu Department, got me pushed 15 yards out his office door into the classroom hallway and I landed hard against some student locker. This is the only time Ahn has cared the dren out of me. And I am 6'2 and 230 lbs.

My teacher, commented on the above competition, win over the other, saying he did NOT like this style of ego orientated push hands. When Shirfu Han walks through this group, they all stop, step aside, and greet him, as they know WHO he is and his skills after 30 years of Xiaojia.

For these and other reasons, push hands is not taught in the Imperial Yang Xiaojia System for 10 year after training begins. No one can learn really high skills in this peer orientated "competition?, and it tends to narrow one's attention to what is possible.
Is not Tai Chi and other Neijia quan about emptying out the ego, and being able to perceive the opponents intention - becoming and blending with him?

To this secret Bakua teacher, I offer, "It is because every one under Heaven recognizes beauty as beauty,that the idea of ugliness exists. And equally if the idea of ugliness exists. this would merely create the fresh conceptions of wickedness. For Being and non-being grow out of one another. (Lao tzu, Tao Te Ching, Chapter2.)

So what is the point of all of this than showing this Pakua teacher'a lack of real development, in a Taoist since. His large mind seems small, disrespecting Dr. Yang. If he is that good, than why does he need to stand on Dr. Yang's shoulders to prove it.

If he really want to prove his expertize in a real fight, I can give him a few names and addresses in Shenyang, Liaoning, or Xiamen Fujian, just for starters that are very tough, able and skillful in combat.

Best regards, So,WhoseYour Real Daddy????

james