Cai, Lie, Zhou, Kao - interesting!

[Allo]

I find it really interesting that in Tai Chi fighting, the 4 moves cai, lie, zhou and kao are used so frequently, and yet these 4 moves are nowhere to be found in the Tai Chi form. (Please note that I refer to the MOVES, but not the concepts explained in the bamen 8 doors theorey of Tai Chi Quan).

The best examples of the frequent use of these moves is in the Tai Chi San Shou (fighting set) sequences out there. In all the variations I've seen, the 4 moves (cai, lie, zhou and kao) are used so often, and rightly so, since there are so effective. I find myself using kao and zhou a lot, but perhaps most surprisingly, using lie the most.

I've done a lot of research into different forms and there don't appear to be many forms out there that incorporate these moves into the sequence. I've seen certain Yang Styles that just stick in kao in the middle of the sequence, typically after Ti Shou Shang Shi (Raise Hands to the Up Posture). I have, however, come across a move called Loong Hui Tou (Dragon Returns it's Head, or something similar in meaning) which the last two sections look like Zhou and Kao. It's quite a long move, consisting of 4 parts, much like Lan Que Wei (Grasp Sparrow's Tail) which consists of Peng, Lu, Ji and An. Perhaps this move Loong Hui Tou was actually supposed to consist of these four moves, cai, lie, zhou and kao!

Any comments about the 4 moves? Or anyone who knows of a form that contains these 4 moves? Or any knowledge about Loong Hui Tou? Anyone?

[lilman]

well from my experience it seems your looking too much at the surface level of the forms. My teacher likes to break down the forms, and Chen style uses a LOT of elbows and bumps. Yang less frequently, but they are there. split can be seen in moves like slanting flying and are very obvious. Pull down in moves like needle at the bottom of the sea. I suggest, first, learning a form, or many. Then learn the 8 movements and the possible changes and transformations, then look again at your forms. You should be able to uncover the secrets. Every move conisists in one way or another from one or more of the 8 basic movements.

[Josh Young]

the 4 moves cai, lie, zhou and kao are used so frequently, and yet these 4 moves are nowhere to be found in the Tai Chi form...

Any comments about the 4 moves? Or anyone who knows of a form that contains these 4 moves?

The public yang form I was taught contains these energies. The move ward off left (called grasp sparrows tail by some as opposed to the grasp sparrows tail sequence of peng/lu/ji/an) contains all four of the later of the 8 energies as well as the first 4.

For me thinking of these 8 energies as techniques is incorrect. They are at the heart of the 13 postures and lead to infinite expression. If they were mere techniques they would fail to encompass all that they do.

This is why these energies are associated with the trigrams, wind, thunder, lake and mountain. They can all be used together and in different ways, like making hexagrams from trigrams, but of course they are not used out of intent but rather constitute a set of reciprocal energies that pertain to specific energies and distances from your duifang.