Dvivid wrote:Very compelling - I agree with your tracing of the Chen/Yang lineages. The 'first road' of Chen style (75 form) looks quite dissimilar from the Yang 108 form.
BUT - What, then, is the story with Wudang?
Well the lineage and influence is pretty clearly back through Jiang Fa or whoever correctly fills his place in the teaching of both Chen Chang Xin AND Chen Qing Ping - there is also the reference of Internal Boxing School influence of Hua Chuan ( Flower Fist Boxing ) which was a blend of Internal and External arts through the Monk Kan Feng Chi - this was explored in my previous long post.
Is it possible there IS a thread of truth in the written history of Wudang in which the ancient Daoist internal arts (Dao Yin) were somehow related to, involved in, or perhaps even the inspiration for the evolution of Yang's slow form? Or do you believe that Yang simply created the slow form of Taijiquan that we know today, period?
Once again, if you go back and re-read the interview with Ma Yueliang I posted he states clearly that before Yang Cheng Fu there was only the Fast Form and I agree with this ... this isn't to say that there were no Qigong or slow cultivation exercises but that the form itself was never performed at a slow pace before Yang Cheng Fu. All of the evidence I have come across clearly supports the idea that all Yang Forms were fast and explosive with leaps and kicks until Yang Cheng Fu changed it to the slow form.
This isn't to say that Wudang didn't have an influence on the arts that Yang Luchan, Chen Chang Xin and Chen Qing Ping all practiced, learned and taught. Perhaps after my last LONG post I should have summarized the basic points in order to make it more clear. I will try here.
1 - Chen Chang Xin was taught an art that came from outside Chen Village by someone reported to be named Jiang Fa.
2 - The art that Jiang Fa was to have taught was not a family art but was rather a Teacher to Pupil based art.
3 - It was said that this style of boxing was an Internal style which mixed both External and Internal styles - it is this style that was taught to yang Luchan and Chen Qing Ping. It is this style that was said to have Taoist/Wudang influence and was originally taught by a wandering Taoist Priest.
4 - Wu Yuxiang also learned this art from Chen Qing Ping when he stayed at Zhaobao Village after being told to go there by Chen Chang Xin who was now too old to teach it.
5 - Yang Luchan stated that while he was taught his art by Chen Chang Xin at Chenjiagou he honed this craft with Chen Qing Ping at Zhaobao Town.
6 - The bottom line is that Chen Village Gongfu was a different art from what Chen Chang Xin taught Yang Luchan. It is this art that Chen Qing Ping was also taught and this is the art that had a mixture of Internal and External boxing styles. This is also why both Yang Style, Wu Style and Zhaobao Style all have Dianmai as a skill set and Chen Style does not.
7 - Yang Luchan then synthesized this art and boiled it down into Yang Style but he also taught many different frames and versions of things he learned at Chen village and Zhaobao according to the nature of his students - this is another likely reason as to why there are so many varying versions also.
8 - As Ma said in the interview ... there was no slow form before Yang Cheng Fu. An Internal Boxing style does not mean the forms had to be slow ... it just means there is some form of internal cultivation in the practice somewhere ... I would say more than likely Qigong was practiced whilst holding fixed postures and THIS was the method ... then the entire set would be performed at fast speed.
Dao Yin exercises and Taiji theory are over 5,000 years old...not Taijiquan theory, but Taiji philosophy...THIS is where I think there is more research needed.
I agree ... the philosophy is ancient but this has no bearing one way or the other as to what was taught to Yang Luchan ... it has been made clear that it was a mixture of Internal Boxing and External schools. All kinds of Boxing Systems have names and influences based on Taoist philosophy and Esoteric Ritual but these are often a broad church in application and practice.
As I understand, Zhang San Feng was an ex-Shaolin, wandering Daoist, who travelled widely teaching Dao Yin (qigong), meditation, and Taiji philosophy. And I don't find it hard to believe that he was involved in the choice of calling this new Yang slow form "TAIJIquan". After all - Yang was a martial artist who just studied Chen Long Fist...
There is no real evidence of Zhang San Feng existing and absolutely zero evidence to support him ever giving the name Taijiquan to a form of boxing that did not yet exist ... it was invented by Yang Luchan and the name was given to Yang's art by the court poet already mentioned in previous posts - this is the earliest record of the name Taijiquan being applied to any art let along Yang's art ... which it was given for. Go back to my previous posts and re-read it ... I feel you might yet grasp the essence of what I have been saying through the research supplied.
I am reading a lot of contradictory stuff regarding Wudang and Zhang Sen Feng, and will be contacting Livia Kohn, a Wudang researcher in the US, in order to get my facts as straight as possible - as I am gearing up to produce a Wudang Arts DVD series...
(Im not talking about the silly wikipeda legends of Zhang San Feng as a 7-foot tall immortal with laser eyes...but of the historical records of his travels and teaching)
The more research you do the better but try and remain open minded and objective while you are at it and try not to have a desired outcome one way or the other but just keep questioning and ask yourself and others if the data really is supported by facts or at the very least a weight of evidence that points in the direction of something akin to facts.
Frankly the most solid sources we have for what Yang, Wu and Chen Qing Ping were taught is through Jiang Fa and there is also the influence of Kan Feng Chi who was a Shaolin Master said to be the one who created an Internal Boxing that found it's way to Chen Village also. I would leave any notions of Zhang San Feng where they currently reside ... in the mists of myth.