Complexity generated from simplicity

[jfraser]

Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: Complexity Generated From Simplicity

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yilong178 wrote:
Why are the traditional form sets like Imperial Tai Ji and Yang Xiaojia so complex and difficult, when Doc Stier has said in a real fight to keep it basic and simple?



James:

The movement patterns found in the form sets of the older, traditional styles of Tai-Chi Chuan may certainly seem more complex in nature, and more athletically challenging than many of the modern, simplified form sets. The fact is, however, that the variety of supposedly different, individual form set postures, and the apparent complexity of the movement patterns connecting them in the older form sets, is nothing more than an expanded collection of modified variations of a few simple physical movement concepts.

Traditional teaching of the older arts generally incorporate 'breakdowns' of the various form postures and form sequences to reveal the presence of these few simple movements throughout the form set. In their modified variations, the simple foundation movements are not always obvious or apparent until they are once again reduced to their most fundamental forms and patterns by way of such 'breakdown' analysis.

It is essentially these few simple movements which compose the movement patterns of the individual postures, and the transitional movements which connect the named and numbered postures in the form set sequence, whatever that sequence may be in the specific form sets of each style.

Additionally, it is these same basic and simple movement concepts which the traditional training strives to implant or program into the deeper subconscious mind for use in automatic reactions and spontaneous responses when engaged in actual fighting.

This is one of the greatest assests of the older, traditional internal-soft style Chinese boxing systems. A practitioner can effectively train his/her mind and body to employ a few core movements in an ever expanding number of practical and effective applications, thus generating great strength in simplicity, requiring no conscious application selection or decision. This is an asset to any defender or fighter because serious fighting scenarios often occur quite suddenly, and take place with too much speed to allow any thinking about what to do or how to do it.

Other unrelated styles often train to employ a comparatively huge number of form sets, movement patterns, individual postures, for which only one believable, practical application, if any at all, can be demonstrated by any practitioner in real fighting situations.

Doc
_________________
"First in the Mind.....Then in the Body."

Extracted from Shenmentao forum, TJQ section, written by me first then responded to by Sifu Stier.

There are some very interesting insights here, IMHO. What say you?

[yeniseri]

Sensible and rational and it makes sense!

It was noted that

A practitioner can effectively train his/her mind and body to employ a few core movements in an ever expanding number of practical and effective applications, thus generating great strength in simplicity, requiring no conscious application selection or decision. This is an asset to any defender or fighter because serious fighting scenarios often occur quite suddenly, and take place with too much speed to allow any thinking about what to do or how to do it.

In the martial sphere, you need to be fast and strike with visciousness so speed is as important along with physical conditioning. If even you lack speed, the physical conditioning transcends and exceeds the speed quotient. You have seen MMA and UFC venues where all fighter were equal, thier conditioning allowed them excel despite lacking speed.
One may be fast enough to hit the opponenet but the conditioning or lack therof determins the winner.

I think we all know this intuitively but how do we translate it into a reality because the form itsself NEVER builds martial skill. You have the train the skill whether it be through sanshou, shuaijiao, etc because they are all contained in one another. Interestingly shuaijiao has all those elements but lacking in the modern equivalent known as groundfighting based on modern rules!

[lilman]

What I understand from his response, tell me if Im wrong, is that the same movements and applications in the older forms are in the newer forms, and the newer forms are more simplified and just require more time and breakdown to get all the applications and technicalities that are in the older forms, right? So what hes saying is it depends on if you want to spend more time on the form, or more time on the analysis of the set and applications to decide if you want to study an older style or a newer one, but in the end, reach the same result?

[yeniseri]

I would say there is no need to analyze a set!!
If you see it and you are aware of the changes and modification, then you work on the application(s) i.e. concept and principles, and thn apply it to the specific posture requirments.

As far as I understand, Yang Chengfu's form is 'simplified' but that does not mean it is easy. It is a modernized version of a same form or forms that either Banhou or his brothers taught. Same in concept where Yang Luchan studied Chen shi taijiquan but he eliminated those 'strenuous' movements that contributed to 'martial skill' and created/synthesized his Yang family form.
I personally would not spend more time on the form but would concentrate and have done so incorporating chansujin, zhanzhuang and the basic concepts of the 8 qualities inherent in grasp birds' tail i.e penglujiankao, etc where each is contained in the other!
Just an observation that one can study Yang Chengfu's form and make it more 'fierce' by studying shuaijiao!

[jfraser]

Thank you for your well thought out response and sharing your experience and wisdom.

I agree with almost all of what you have said, except the following:

Same in concept where Yang Luchan studied Chen shi taijiquan but he eliminated those 'strenuous' movements that contributed to 'martial skill' and created/synthesized his Yang family form.

In Imperial Yang TJQ and the Yang Xiaojia (small frame) I am studying, the strenuous movements have NOT been elimiated. The Xiaojia form, and other parts of this system are very challenging athletically, and mentally. Since the set alone takes 40 minutes to complete, with much stress on the legs, it is quite a work out. It bears almost no resemblance to variations of Yang, Cheng Fu's form. Grasping a Bird's Tail, l or Cloud Hands does not resemble Yang, Cheng Fu's form, or how they are done in Chen style, for example. And you would not recognize White Crane Spreads it's Wings or Repulse the Monkey. Prior Tai Chi training in more modern forms can be a liablity, as 98 % of yourexpereince, is not relevant, except learning and coping physical movements and their many transitions. Modern sets have a limited number of transitions, where as Xiao jia and Imperial TJQ have many varied and unnamed and unnumbered movement before the next movement that IS named and numbered begins. It has constant Chanshirjin, spiroling and "Sanchin" stepping, with much focus on leg trapping. And, it has much Shuai jiao in it, but hidden in great complexity and difficult movements and transitions.

Sifu Stier's answer is right on, and to the point, from where I stand, headed back to the Northeast for intensive few weeks with my shirfu. My shirfu told me that there are 7 combat movements in this systesm, only one of which is in the form. He said he would teach me the others, "when you are ready".

In over 40 years MA practice (jack of several, master of none), this form is by far the hardest I have ever learned. My teacher has only two students, his wife and me, because this form is so complex and difficult. My shirfu has been doing the same set and system for 30 years. Before his teacher would teach him, he had to do 250 set of a difficult up and down Tai Chi walking per day, which he did and he said it was very difficult. then his Shirfu began teaching him Xiaojia, and not the usual 24 movements Yang TJQ to students at Liaoning University.

If you are in the NJ area, Jack Hoban's Bujinkan ninjutsu classes are a useful editions to TJQ training. I think he has a Web site and some of his high ranking students are very good and have considerable practical experience in the bowels of NYC

Best regards,
James

[yeniseri]

jfraser stated

Sifu Stier's answer is right on, and to the point. My shirfu told me that there are 7 combat movements, only one of which is in the form. He said he would teach me, "when you are ready".

That is great! No doubt that you have a wonderful teacher!
Tim Cartmell, one of the better known practitioners form both 'old' and 'new' 'schools has been known to train taijiquan practitioners (introduce them to martial realm, at least the basics) in 6months to 1 year!
Just a qualitative reference to achieving some degree of martial orientation where 6 months does not make one an expert but serves to show how the skill is transferable and objective in acquisition as opposed to some other "mystic route" that is often invoked!

[jfraser]

Yes, for decades I am really tired of the mystical and mysterious associated with most modern forms of TJC.

I have certainly heard good things about Mr. Cartnell, in CA, correct?
Are you his student?
:

[jfraser]

Please read the following carefully and think about what Sifu Stier is saying here. For me, this kind of information has been secret, and little known even by teachers.

Additionally, it is these same basic and simple movement concepts which the traditional training strives to implant or program into the deeper subconscious mind for use in automatic reactions and spontaneous responses when engaged in actual fighting.
This is one of the greatest assests of the older, traditional internal-soft style Chinese boxing systems. A practitioner can effectively train his/her mind and body to employ a few core movements in an ever expanding number of practical and effective applications, thus generating great strength in simplicity, requiring no conscious application selection or decision. This is an asset to any defender or fighter because serious fighting scenarios often occur quite suddenly, and take place with too much speed to allow any thinking about what to do or how to do it

I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm to learn all you can about TJQ. For me the book learnng and studing is secondary to learing by feeling and experience, or awareness. If I may be so bold as to suggest stop thinking and analysing, and work out, relax, and feel what you are doing, for many years, hopefully with proper and competant corrections and instructions. And again read carefully what Sifu Stier has written above, over and over again. This has not been said out loud by anyone I know of, including world wide TJQ teachers. It is worth gold to me in my training, and especially heading back up to see my Shirfu in the northeast.

Where is El Paso from Austin, TX?

[lilman]

El Paso is way West from austin Texas... Like 12 hour drive.. I dont know what that has to do with the post, but so you can answer that question... I tried getting access to the Shenmentao forum, but they never e-mailed me with confirmation I cant post so...

As far as my post earlier, just to clarify... What I mean by ANALYZING the forms, is every form, as we all know, has more than one application, it means analyzing the full movements, analyzing the bits and pieces of movements that can be applications, and analyzing the movments that ARENT in the form to create applications. So by means of breaking down the movements to their lowest and highest levels, you naturally master the movement and the applications through practice, and naturally, applications just come to you. This is what Im assuming Sifu Stier means by:

it is these same basic and simple movement concepts which the traditional training strives to implant or program into the deeper subconscious mind for use in automatic reactions and spontaneous responses when engaged in actual fighting.

In the traditional styles the break down is more obvious in the form with additional movements and postures. In the newer styles you have to break down the form further to get those results. Even if you dont you still can learn applications and the forms, but not completely master the individual movements... Is my theory that far off?

[sysop]

The movement patterns found in the form sets of the older, traditional styles of Tai-Chi Chuan may certainly seem more complex in nature, and more athletically challenging than many of the modern, simplified form sets. The fact is, however, that the variety of supposedly different, individual form set postures, and the apparent complexity of the movement patterns connecting them in the older form sets, is nothing more than an expanded collection of modified variations of a few simple physical movement concepts.

Traditional teaching of the older arts generally incorporate 'breakdowns' of the various form postures and form sequences to reveal the presence of these few simple movements throughout the form set. In their modified variations, the simple foundation movements are not always obvious or apparent until they are once again reduced to their most fundamental forms and patterns by way of such 'breakdown' analysis.

It is essentially these few simple movements which compose the movement patterns of the individual postures, and the transitional movements which connect the named and numbered postures in the form set sequence, whatever that sequence may be in the specific form sets of each style.

Additionally, it is these same basic and simple movement concepts which the traditional training strives to implant or program into the deeper subconscious mind for use in automatic reactions and spontaneous responses when engaged in actual fighting.

This is one of the greatest assests of the older, traditional internal-soft style Chinese boxing systems. A practitioner can effectively train his/her mind and body to employ a few core movements in an ever expanding number of practical and effective applications, thus generating great strength in simplicity, requiring no conscious application selection or decision. This is an asset to any defender or fighter because serious fighting scenarios often occur quite suddenly, and take place with too much speed to allow any thinking about what to do or how to do it.

Other unrelated styles often train to employ a comparatively huge number of form sets, movement patterns, individual postures, for which only one believable, practical application, if any at all, can be demonstrated by any practitioner in real fighting situations.

Extracted from Shenmentao forum, TJQ section, written by me first then responded to by Sifu Stier.

There are some very interesting insights here, IMHO. What say you?

I added emphasis to the areas I see the most insight. I see him (Sifu Stier) stating that Tai Chi Chuan, while seeming complex, is actually based on a very simple set of movements and core principles that can be used "in an ever expanding number of practical and effective applications".

[Dvivid]

Good thread.

Yes, body memory. Or as Master Yang discusses: training to the stage of "The Regulating of No Regulating". Train the 13 postures especially, until the movements are your natural instinctive reaction, built into your reflexes.

Discussed and demonstrated extensively here:


http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/internal/taijiquan/taiji_martial_applications_DVD

[jfraser]

Dvivid wrote:

Yes, body memory. Or as Master Yang discusses: training to the stage of "The Regulating of No Regulating". Train the 13 postures especially, until the movements are your natural instinctive reaction, built into your reflexes.

Discussed and demonstrated extensively here:


http://www.ymaa.com/publishing/internal ... ations_DVD
_________________
"Avoid Prejudice, Be Objective in Your Judgement, Be Scientific, Be Logical and Make Sense, Do Not Ignore Prior Experience." - Dr. Yang

So if you don't mind estimating, how much of thes book incorporates Qinna?

In my expereince, I don't like qinna, UNLESS I have hit my opponent and hurt him, and want to drop him to the floor NOW. So, for me qinna follows what Dr. Yang calls Cavity Presses. Then there is little resistance to applying qinna, and combining it with throwing and locking my opponenet up on the floor.
In this area, I am more familiar with the Ninjutsu approach to this subject.

IMHO, there is more to this than "body memory". A Silat master, once said that if you practice a certain movement that fits you a 1000 times it becomes muscle memory, and will come out when you need it without thought. This MAY exclude appropriate and spontaneous responses that may even suprise your self, that were never practiced consciously.
Thank you.

[Dave C.]

Some of the older styles aren't more complex, they are sometimes simpler than what we have today. Baguazhang, for example, started with just three palm changes got more complex over time. Xingyiquan started with the three old fists and got more complex.

Other times more complex or having more sets is just more stuff. It's not always a good thing. The later versions of a style are sometimes seen as simplified versions but they could just as easily be seen as more highly concentrated versions of the material. Styles do evolve.

IMO it's not as simple as complex is better.