evasive and small angular stepping and step training in TJQ

[jfraser]

After considerable thought, asking questions, and personal research, I finally got an answer to my many years old questionis about where the evasive stepping is taught and learned in TJQ. This is rarely discussed or taked about in the vast majority of TJQ circles. Without evasive step training, considering the emphasis on neutralization, stick, follow, etc., application is very limited, and can be fraught with illusion, that may be dangerous to the health and well-being of the person learning TJQ and thinking they can use their skills in the street.

The following is from Sifu Stier, www.shenmentao.com/forum. It was copied by me from the TJQ section of this forum regarding this subject. It is very revealing and clarifying IMHO:

Most of the TCC Form Sets commonly seen nowadays are training sets meant to develop basic physical attributes and skills. They are not usage or application sets, and thus normally do not include much evasive footwork, if any at all.

Such footwork is presented at more advanced levels of training in the older large frame styles of TCC via separate form sets, which are intended to develop fighting usage skills. In more modern large frame styles of TCC, which do not include usage application sets, such evasive footwork will only appear in its methods of Tui-Shou, Ta Lu, San Shou, and other partner drills.

The traditional small frame styles of TCC typically contain the subtleties of fighting footwork within the form set, or at least imply its existence in using shorter, higher stances, follow-up steps, more frequent stepping to different compass directions, and so forth, than is typically seen in most large frame TCC form sets.

Doc
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[lilman]

Do you have any good training sources for this (besides an experienced teacher) you could provide? I read a book Combat Techniques of Taiji Xingyi and Bagua, it shows evasive footwork, but not in detail, and its the same footwork that is normally trained in Taiji.

[Dave C.]

After considerable thought, asking questions, and personal research, I finally got an answer to my many years old questionis about where the evasive stepping is taught and learned in TJQ. This is rarely discussed or taked about in the vast majority of TJQ circles.

One of the reasons it's rarely discussed it that few follow through until they get to dalu. That's if the teacher knows it. In dalu, the angular stepping is obviously there.

Those of us that do "Old Yang" systems other than those associated with Cheng-fu usually have access to some of the material mentioned in your quote. As Doc Steir says, most of that stuff is hidden in the footwork. So it's not a matter of many of us not having it, it's a matter of the usage and training of it not being made clear. You have to take that stuff out of the form and work it separately if you ever hope to use it. Form practice isn't enough.

Even the wushu forms contain some decent footwork, but it isn't trained separately, making it potentially useless.

[jfraser]

You have to take that stuff out of the form and work it separately if you ever hope to use it. Form practice isn't enough.

I certainly agree with what you say here. Serak Silat and Kali have a lot of step training and evasive training in ithere styles. This is worked seperately from the sets, and it is said, when you need evasive stepping, it will integrate with your arms, body, etc and without thought. That is my experience.

Sifu Stier stated there are more that one set taught in Old TJQ circles, that included evasive angular stepping, but these sets were not commonly taucht, due to their complexity and difficult.

Anyone ever seen a TJQ set with regular angular and evasive footwork in it?

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[jfraser]

There is a book by Shirfu Park, out of Balimore, MD on Pakua, where he shows many stepping parterns form his system.

James

[lilman]

Nope never seen a form with evasive footwork in it but thought that was done on purpose. In the classics it says the real application should not be obvious in the form.

Quick question due to evasive step training and reaction speed. I saw a movie once... Where they hung yarn balls from a tree at different distances and hieghts. The object of the training was to move through the balls as quickly as possible without hitting any of the balls. I could see how this would increase your awareness and reaction speed, but do you think this is a good possible training for evasive stepping techniques as well?

[Yatish Parmar]

IMO the yang long sequence that we do at ymaa does show the principles of evasive stepping.
1) direction changes and fake leg movements in-between forms reminds you that stepping is alive
2) the perpetual debate about the kick/putting the leg down after forms like raise hands to the up posture: is it at 90 is it at 45? How much should the body turn when doing white crane spreads the wings? Same deal about moving and angling in relation to the opponent
3) the most blam in your face example that an idiot would be hard pressed to miss is fair lady weaves the shuttle

also when you do the fighting set, it is impossible to neutralise and perform any applications unless you have the right footwork/angle. Adding in plucks, hooks and generally getting dirty teaches even more about footwork.

sorry if this sounds rough but I have had a 13 hour day and am ready for bed.

[Dave C.]

Dr. Yang's taiji fighting set DVD is the place to see how he does the angular stepping. That DVD is quite good, he really goes into details about how to do the set. It's one of the only really advanced taiji DVDs that I've seen.

[yeniseri]

Can anyone tell me who is/are the representatives of this Old Yang sets?
I realize they may be secrets hence the refusal to name but sometimes we go overboard in these fabulous sounding scenarios that are just to 'true' to be true. I am from Missouri so "show me" the truth!

Based on my limited experiences, the Old Yang style form/frame is no better than the present Yang style frame/format. If one has truly examined all sides, you will see they are are similar in outward expression. That means the tools of martial skill in Yang style are not shown because people do no know them, do not study them, and they are not taught. One does not have to know the martial but that training is what one MAY say truly reflects /or should reflect the Old Yang training.

Wu Quanyu and Wu Yuxian appear to be the closest to any Old Yang training but still the vein is there but the expressions are close enough according to the era they were taught. Outward expression still approximates what is seen today!

Better is what you were taught and all taijiquan is ONE!
Long Live Taijiquan whatever its leanings!

[jfraser]

The angular stepping I am referring to is largely 22 1/2 degree, meaning iif your style moves from the "center of things", out in the 8 directions of a compass, these angles would be NE, SE, SW, and WE, not necessarily in that order. 45 degree stepping give my opponent relatively easy access to me in ways I am very uncomfortable with, and the same applys to 90 degrees, with exceptions.

What I find most interesting is Sifu Stier saying the following which I stated previously:

Sifu Stier stated there are more that one set taught in Old TJQ circles, that included evasive angular stepping, but these sets were not commonly taught, due to their complexity and difficulty.

Anyone ever seen or practiced an old TJQ set with regular angular and evasive footwork in it? I had the feeling for years that there were more sets than the typical 108, 85, 48 or Lao Jia, for examples. There are few if any evasive stepping in these modern versions, as far as I kow. No teacher before would give me straight answers about other sets, or evasive stepping. Both of these subjects have been very secret in TJQ history, and much of it may be lost, or available in inner circles or with teachers like Sifu Stier. That is IMHO.

I have Dr. Yang's DVD Fighting Set, but it is in storage/transit, as I am being fairly mobil around China in the next few months. I will check it out again when I have the chance. Thanks for the reminder and suggestions.

[lilman]

Ive been pondering about this subject, and the Taiji forms do have evasive stepping. even angular stepping. Let me show you why I say this...

If you really study the 5 style steps the way their supposed to be, a step forward isnt really a step forward, its a step forward slightly to the left or right, at about 22 1/2 to 45 degree angle. When you step forward your body goes down as to get inside the opponents defense. If you step backward, its the same, just your body goes up so you can see the opponents whole body during stepping, for better defense. Stepping to the left or right is the same, only you guard the opposite side as well. When you correctly step, using heel to toe forward and toe to heel backward, you should be able to feel where you are stepping first, and be able to fluidly change your step in any direction. So knowing this, why would you have to have angular stepping in the form if you already know it. Matching steps training should be enough for you to pick up angular stepping to evade attacks and set up your own counter. When you do moves like step back repulse monkey in the form, your using evasive stepping already, your stepping back to the best position to pull your opponent off balance and strike, or to take the opponent down. You can step se or sw to setup the attack, or if need be just backwards. Evasive angular stepping is purely situational and I feel it would be pointless to put it into a form if it should not be adhered to. The form is only to teach basic principles and basic applications, and get a feel for the footwork and how to move in a real fight. The form should just be part of the training, not all of it. So the form and the 5 style steps should be enough.

[Dave C.]

The Yang 88 san shou form IS Old Yang. The current Yang family doesn't claim it as "official" Yang style taiji. And it does use the stepping alluded to in this thread.

Other than that, I don't see the need for any more sets. I don't see where they would add much, especially in the way of stepping. Again, IMO stepping is something that largely needs to be trained outside of forms work.

I have footwork from the long form and dalu that takes care of most of my angular footwork needs. But I also do all my push hands patterns while walking the circle. I notice that Dr. Yang seems to do this, as well.

Once, you have the footwork from the long form, push hands and dalu, weapons, and the sanshou, I just don't think you'd need anything else.

I mention weapons because they haven't been mentioned in the thread yet, but my taiji sword form contains some footwork patterns and stances not found in the others. Put together, it seems a pretty complete package.

[jfraser]

I don't get the feeling that I am being understood about this angular stepping, and its importance to train in seperately. Dave C. notes`this to
be`true.

My inpression of Dr. Yangs /fighting `set`DVD`is there is a lot of circular stepping the fit the techniques being used in this set, but not much of the angulars stepping, which brings you up close and personal, and the opponent needs to take and extra movememnt and or step to get to you, And there is a momentary open door.

So I guess we agree to disagree.

Dr. Yang has stated that TJQ is a close range fighting system. The Fighting set seems to most often operate at a medium range, except when entering.

[lilman]

As far as the 88 posture fighting set, the reason that most of the movements go from medium range to short range from my understanding is that its to simulate a real fight, so its supposed to teach you to move from long range to middle range to short range while opening doors and windows. Maybe we dont disagree with your theory of angular stepping, but maybe we just dont understand. Your talking about stepping to close your doors and windows and open the opponents? Shouldnt a skilled martial artist be able to do that standing still without angular steps? And arent the angular steps for closing in distance and opening doors and windows present in the techniques? If so, why train them seperately? And if the fighting set, and push hands show you how to gain the most advantageous position, why would you need to add extra footwork? Maybe you can enlighten us now that you understand our confusion with the subject.

[jfraser]

Your talking about stepping to close your doors and windows and open the opponents? Shouldnt a skilled martial artist be able to do that standing still without angular steps?

I skilled martial artist should be able to do that standing still, assuming your opponent will just stand there for you, and not continue to move to defend or find more advantagous positions and opportunities to dc
you in. Just standing there is not a good idea when an angry SOB wants to take your head off and will keep moving to find the best way to do so.

A fight is NOT ippon kumite as in sport Karate training, where your training partner takes a big step at you and punches classically, then stops, waiting for your counter attack. I found this you years ago the hard way.

[lilman]

No, I definately agree. You wont just stand there in a real fight. You have to step and move, but is additional training actually necessary to do so? Some foot work you learn just by doing applications and pushing hands. What other training is necessary?

[jfraser]

What I find most interesting is Sifu Stier saying the following which I stated previously:

Sifu Stier stated there are more that one set taught in Old TJQ circles, that included evasive angular stepping, but these sets were not commonly taught, due to their complexity and difficulty.

Anyone ever seen or practiced an old TJQ set with regular angular and evasive footwork in it? I had the feeling for years that there were more sets than the typical 108, 85, 48 or Lao Jia, for examples. There are few if any evasive stepping in these modern versions, as far as I kow. No teacher before would give me straight answers about other sets, or evasive stepping. Both of these subjects have been very secret in TJQ history, and much of it may be lost, or available in inner circles or with teachers like Sifu Stier. That is IMHO.

I guess you will have to find out for your self if what I am saying is inportant to your trainingl I certainly is to mine