Buying a sword

[Damo]

Hi,

I hope this is in the correct section of the forum. Apologies in advance if not

I was wondering if anybody could help me, I want a Jian for TaijiQuan practice but I cant find anyone who sells them anywhere. I want a longer sword like the one Dr Yang uses in his sword form. Most of the swords I find are way shorter.
Does anyone have any suggestions?


Many Thanks

[Dave C.]

My suggestion would be to use a much shorter one. I think Dr. Yang's sword is a bit unusual in its length. Most historical examples aren't that long. Beginners should definitely go for a more normal length weapon until they are proficient.

[Dvivid]

In fact, from a historical viewpoint, the longer your sword, the more likely you are to win in a life or death battle. That's what swords are for.

In the last 100 years, swords in training and demonstration have become shorter, because its easier. But its not more correct or "normal" to use a shorter sword.

I would trust Dr Yang on this one. He does an unparalleled amount of research, and grew up training in Taiwan in the old days.

To be more precise, I asked him this morning, and he said this:

It is true that a long Taiji sword was harder to find in the 1980's, at which time in Taijiquan society weapons were not popular yet. Most people used the short ones available at the time. The Taiji sword and saber practitioners capable of like to sticking and adhering to the opponent's weapon prefer a longer distance. This will offer a Taiji swordsman an advantage of manipulating the situation. However, if a Taiji swordsman does not have a good skill to adhere to the opponent, then the length of the sword will only increase the weight and make it slower.

Taiji sword length should be from ground to the solar plexus. Therefore, the length depends on each individual. Unfortunately, most Taiji sword practitioners do not really know how to use the sword today. Without sticking and adhering skills, a sword practitioner is forced to use a shorter sword, and the skill level remains shallow.

At YMAA, we train with the longest sword our body structure allows, with a focus on sticking and adhering.

I recommend our friends:

http://www.wle.com/store/straightSwords.html
Wing Lam, and


http://buykungfu.com/?mainURL=/store/category/5fkr/Long_KF_Equipment.html
Beijing Imports.

Good people. Quality Stuff.

[Dave C.]

In fact, from a historical viewpoint, the longer your sword, the more likely you are to win in a life or death battle. That's what swords are for.

In the last 100 years, swords in training and demonstration have become shorter, because its easier. But its not more correct or "normal" to use a shorter sword.

I would trust Dr Yang on this one. He does an unparalleled amount of research, and grew up training in Taiwan in the old days.

Well, with all due respect to Dr. Yang, I think the case for using a shorter sword is pretty good.

We know from Qing dynasty era weapons that the longer jian is fairly uncommon. Most jians from that period are shorter in length than the one used by Dr. Yang in his taiji sword video. Since Yang style taiji arose in the late Qing dynasty, we might expect the style to have used swords from that period.

Looking at the historical documents, we see that the shorter, "normal" length sword is the one used. To my knowledge, Chen Wei-ming's book is the first to show the Yang sword. Note this pic of him:


The secret Yang family manuscript called "Taijiquan,Dao, Jian, Qiang, Sanshou" from slightly later shows pics of the Yang sword form with the normal length sword, as well. (This is the book that has the pics of the 88 sanshou form that Dr. Yang used for the Taiji Fighting Set Video. A truly excellent video BTW.)

All the other historical documents from the early Republic era that I have show a shorter sword for the various sets they use. I only have one that shows a longer, "scholar" size sword.

So the statement that jians have become shorter over the past hundred years seems a bit off to me. The literature doesn't seem to support it from what I've seen. I wouldn't have expected them to become shorter over that time anyway, since they haven't been used on the battlefield in some time.

As for sticking training, the normal sword length doesn't prevent that in any way. The practice is the same regardless of the practice.

Finally, I would make an argument similar to Dr. Yang's on the Qi Mei staff DVD. There he said that students should train the shorter southern staff before moving on to the 9-foot northern white waxwood staff. He said it was easier to get the movements down with the shorter staff. I would extend that argument to the sword as well.

In the end, people have their preferences so it's no big deal. Appreciate the chance to discuss this.

[Dvivid]

Nice detailed response, thanks!

I guess you and Dr Yang will have to duke it out, and may the best sword win!

[Dave C.]

Nice detailed response, thanks!

I guess you and Dr Yang will have to duke it out, and may the best sword win!

Gulp! I think I'll start training with a longer sword.

[DOM]

Dave C. Your reference and comparison to Master Yang's statement about using a shorter staff and progressing to a longer one is the same analogy I have made from trying to use a much longer and heavier sword myself. Especially for Tai chi chaun. In fact I lost all desire to practice because it was way to cumbersome and difficult to move smoothly. I am in the process of getting a much shorter sword to start with and would definitely suggest that to anyone else. Start with a length and weight that is comfortable and work your why up to a longer and heavier sword !

[Yatish Parmar]

I started with a normal sabre and sword. Along the way I acquired a longer and super heavy sabre. I now practice all my basics with this one. Because of it's nature I *have* to use the body to coil yadda yadda.

When I pick up a shorter lighter weapon, use is almost effortless.

[lilman]

I definately agree. A smaller sword is great for learning the form cuz it doesnt tire you out repeating the movements over and over to create muscle memory. A longer sword is better for practice, ie. coiling, accuracy training, techniques, etc... And once you can lead your chi to the end of a longsword and do the whold form, you've probably reached a pretty high level.

[Dave C.]

I think whatever people want to practice with is fine. But again, the literature from the time does not show a longer sword being used for the taiji practice.

And the idea that a longer, heavier weapon is better is something I slightly disagree with.

I say that because as I was taught it, jian is not about power, but sensitivity and finesse.

When I started with my jian teacher, I brought a big heavy wooden sword to practice. He asked what that junk was and told me to throw it away. He then handed me his jian and it was very light and thin (normal length BTW). I asked him why he thought that type of light weapon was better and he said we'd test it out.

He asked to to stand in a guard position with the sword and try to strike him. He'd simply react and do the same to me. I tried to poke him with my heavy sword, but he had scored four cuts by the time that I reached him.

BTW, this was shown at the end of the movie Rob Roy. The guy with the longer, heavier sword was cut to pieces by a lighter sword.

The smaller, normal length sword is much faster, more nimble and sensitive. IMO it is much better for taiji sword practice.

[Dvivid]

Anyone who has trained sword with Master Yang has had this experience: Before you can land any cut or slice on him, he has neutralized it and cut you, before even you realize it has happened. (With matching-length training swords.)

The speed and accuracy of any Master of course will win over a student who is in earlier stage of learning.

So then, imagine the advantage gained when the master possesses superior sticking and adhering skills, and can reach in and cut off your sword hand while you are still an inch (or two) away from being able to reach him.

We're talking length here mainly, not weight.

A 36 inch jian is not heavy. Unless maybe you spend all your training time using a short, lightweight sword. (muah ha haaa)

Dao is a different story.

YMAA people, don't be confused by this discussion. Your sword length is from the ground, to your solar plexus. Master Yang has spoken. If it is too heavy for you to learn with, then yes, of course move down a bit, and gradually work your way up.

The literature we quote to inform our practice is written by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming.

Dave C my friend, you're gonna end up like Luke Skywalker at the end of Empire Strikes Back. Maybe when you get a robot hand you'll be able to use a longer sword.

(Kidding...sorry, I couldn't get that visual out of my head, had to say it.)

Truth is, ultimately, its not about size...its how you use it.

If you don't have sticking, adhering, neutralizing skills, you're going to end up with robot arms, and maybe a robot head.

[Dave C.]

Dave C my friend, you're gonna end up like Luke Skywalker at the end of Empire Strikes Back. Maybe when you get a robot hand you'll be able to use a longer sword.

(Kidding...sorry, I couldn't get that visual out of my head, had to say it.)

Truth is, ultimately, its not about size...its how you use it.

No, not Luke! Ugh! What a wimp.

That last statement is too true.

[jbowman]

I would like to to start by saying a sword should fit the owner. I f you look closely at the sword used by Master Yang the blade is average length with a two handed handle. As stated above the Jian used in Taiji is sized to the owners solar plexus (spell check) the Shaolin blade to the dan tian or the ear lobe when held in the hand point up behind the arm. The extra handle length can be used to get more leverage or to quickly change the blade between hands. Longer blade length can help to combat a spear,staff or other long weapon. I think the majority of available "swords" are pretty generic. A real live blade is made to fit the owner, then and now and every style likes something different .
The most important thing to remember is that a swordsman is not his sword or swords person.

[Dave C.]

I think the majority of available "swords" are pretty generic. A real live blade is made to fit the owner, then and now and every style likes something different .

There is no proof of either of those later ideas. Most blades were not custom produced as far as I can tell unless it was for royalty. And each style didn't have it's own sword. Almost all used whatever was available. So the majority of actual swords used in combat were pretty generic, too.

The historical documents from the early republic period show a remarkable homogeneity when it comes to the blade lengths and shapes used.

[sysop]

There is no proof of either of those later ideas. Most blades were not custom produced as far as I can tell unless it was for royalty. And each style didn't have it's own sword. Almost all used whatever was available. So the majority of actual swords used in combat were pretty generic, too.

I am certainly no expert on swords myself, but from what I have researched I agree with Dave C. A great deal of respect in the area of collecting, dealing, and usage of authentic ancient Chinese swords has been given to a man named Scott M. Rodell. He has also published an informative book called "Chinese Swordsmanship: The Yang Family Taiji Jian Tradition".

In regards to custom produced swords, Mr. Rodell claims that is one of five major myths about Chinese swords:

It is commonly stated by martial artists that swords were usually made to order. This does not seem to be generally true, although there were always exceptions. Even a quick survey of antique jian or dao shows that they only vary a couple of inches in length. Although blade decoration and fittings do come in different styles, they tend to fall within a certain number of distinct variations, of which many examples were made over several generations. Given the Han people's great variety of shapes, weights and heights between North, South, East and West China, we should expect a greater variation among the swords if they had been made to order.

- Ref. http://sevenstarstrading.com/articles/articles.php?page=articles&subpage=myths&secondCrumb=Myths%20about%20Chinese%20Swordsmanship (Emphasis added.)

Also in regards to length, first of all Mr. Rodell claims that there is no such thing as a Taiji specific sword:

Taijiquan practitioners required swords with the same characteristics as any other fencing system. They were (are) also constrained in the same way any other martial art was, by the laws of metallurgy. Nineteenth century taiji jian swordsmen adopted existing sword types, rather than inventing new ones.

- Ref. http://sevenstarstrading.com/articles/articles.php?page=articles&subpage=myths&secondCrumb=Myths%20about%20Chinese%20Swordsmanship (Emphasis added.)

Second, many of Mr. Rodell's actual authentic ancient Chinese swords only varied in length by a few inches. He shows a possibly late Ming though more likely early-to-mid Qing blade possibly earlier with a blade length of 26" in.

Here he shows a Ceremonial Saber Of The Imperial Court (Huangchao Baolidao) Qianlong reign, ca. 1760-95 (mounts later)
Blade length 30 5/8 in.


(Ref. http://www.grtc.org/articles/art_of_chinese_sword.html)

[Dave C.]

Beyond historical discussions there are other things to take into account.

Regardless of what was historically taught as far as swordplay goes, or what swords were historically used, if someone is a teacher of a large system and they have tailored the training to suit a certain blade or style of fencing, then making that shape blade the standard in their system is perfectly acceptable.

This is what Dr. Yang has apparently done and I see no problem with that.

It's just that that's a different consideration than making a historical argument.

One of my own teachers prefers a jian much towards the light end of the range found in historical models. I thought it was much too light. But his whole system is built around it and he uses the light jian, very, very well -- even to the extent of competing in Western fencing matches in the past.

So I can appreciate the fact that head teachers sometimes "set" the type of sword used in their system. It only makes sense.

[TheGravedigger]

I realize I'm coming to this discussion late, but I just arrived <g>.

I've read this thread about sword length, and have a slight dilemma:

I'm 6'4" tall, and it takes a SERIOUS blade to reach my solar plexus. I've looked at buykungfu.com, and the only jian that comes close is their two-handed sword. Should I use this one, or go with one of the 36" one-handed models?

I've trained with rapiers and European longswords, so the length doesn't bother me. However, I'm concerned if the grip/pommel would be an impediment. I realize Master Yang uses one, but then, he's Master Yang...

Any help would be appreciated.

[Dvivid]

Sword length also depends upon the style you practice.

Is it internal or external sword? I assume 'internal' since you're posting here.

A long sword with a 2-handed handle is considered a traditional battle sword. It has enough weight to penetrate the armor worn in ancient times. Those are typically Northern style swords, for longer range fighting.

For internal styles, listening, sticking and adhering are the major concern, so the balance of the sword needs to be at the one-third point. A 2-handed handle sword probably wont be balanced that way.

I say try the 36" one-handed for now. Im 6 inches shorter than you and I use one and like it alot. Maybe you can eventually find a longer one if needed.

[TheGravedigger]

Sword length also depends upon the style you practice.

For internal styles, listening, sticking and adhering are the major concern, so the balance of the sword needs to be at the one-third point. A 2-handed handle sword probably wont be balanced that way.

It's internal -- Taiji.

Interesting balance point. By one-third, do you mean one-third the length of the blade, or one-third the length of the entire sword?

On European swords, we like for the center of balance to be a couple of inches in front of the guard. This gives a lighter feel to the sword, and makes it more maneuverable. Surprisingly, the German longsword's winden (winding) techniques are in many ways similar to what little I've seen of Taiji sword's sticking and adhering.

Also, since the 36" seems to be the way to go, is it worth the extra money for buykungfu.com's $120 competition sword? Is the weight and balance any better than their taiji sword?[/quote]

[Dvivid]

The balance point is about one third of the blade, on the 36 inch blade it will be at around the 10 inch mark or so, depending on the weight of the blade. It is of course lighter as it gets thinner and sharper.

I haven't seen the competition sword from BuyKungFu.com, but their stuff is higher quality import from Taiwan than everything I've seen in the same price range from China.