yang or chen

[Dave C.]

In the book The Combat Techniques of Bagua Taiji and Xingyi, it mentions that a CHEN family member wrote a treatise on how the I Ching affects everything in Taiji and if you dont adhere to this theory, what your practicing is not Taiji.

Yes, the book is the Illustrated Cannon of Chen Family Taijiquan by Chen Xin. It is available here:
http://www.inbiworld.com/

You can read a review of it here:
http://renli.wordpress.com/2007/08/31/c ... ok-part-1/

Once again, Chen's book came out long AFTER the Yang family made taijiquan a famous style. The Chens apparently didn't even call their art "taijiquan" before the Yang family came up with the name. Chen's book, according to Douglas Wile in the recent Journal of Asian Martial Arts, was likely a response to the popularity of Yang style. If so, then the language and examples used are likely to be largely influenced by Yang style.

Taiji historian Tang Hao went to Chen family village around the turn of the 20th century and found nothing in the way of classics, Daoist influenced or otherwise. This is widely known. As far as the more-Daoist looking diagrams about meridians, etc. in Chen Xin's book, people like Chen Zheng-lei have said that they have nothing to do with Chen style.

Again, this isn't all as simplistic as some people think.

[lilman]

So if Chen style is the root of Yang style, where does it come from, and what is it then, if the Yang style theory is completely forsaking its root? Any resources or info you can give on this subject?

[Dave C.]

Lilman,
I highly recommend the works of Douglas Wile and Barbara Davis to you. They are known for sticking to the historical record and are both academics. They are the ones you should be getting your history from IMO. Do Google searches for them.

[jfraser]

yang is continuous and smooth and chen has points of fast explosive movements. chen is the older style too

Here I want to focus on the fact that there are many versions of Yang TJC, and some are not continuous and smooth all the way through. Imperial Yang TJQ has fa jin in every movement throughout it's sets.
There are small, medium and large frame versions of this TJQ, Imperial TJQ tends to move in patterns in the 8 directions of the compass. One of the small frame sets and other training patterns that decended from this system moves in this way and looks like no other TJQ set I have any expereince with. And the San Shou of the medium and small frame look more like Xing Yi Quan, that TJQ.

A local sirfu said to me recently that this 8 direction pattern of stepping, lturning and pivoting was because when Yang Lu Chan trained the emporer' personal body guards, he did not have much open space in which to do so. Plus angular stepping patterns are very useful.

[riczg]

Dave C. said:

Taiji historian Tang Hao went to Chen family village around the turn of the 20th century and found nothing in the way of classics, Daoist influenced or otherwise. This is widely known. As far as the more-Daoist looking diagrams about meridians, etc. in Chen Xin's book, people like Chen Zheng-lei have said that they have nothing to do with Chen style.

Greetings,

Very interesting!

Dave C., do you have the reference where Master Chen Zheng Lei said that?

I have been trying to understand taijiquan history myself ( I haven't bought Douglas Wile's books yet, though ).

I think that there are two types of theory we have to discriminate. One is the philosophical theory (Daoism, Buddism, Confucianism, Yin-Yang, I-Ching, etc.). The other one is the kind of jing (hard, hard/soft, soft as Master Yang states), 8 jings, 5 patterns, listening jing, etc.

I think that Chen and Yang styles more or less share the second kind of theory with some differences, such as Chen jing being harder than Yang jings (maybe I'm wrong on this).

For the first type of theory I have two thoughts. First the whole Chinese culture is embedded in these philosophies. Second, Yang style masters have elaborated more or first on the theory of the art relating it to Daoism and I-Ching, and, as Dave C. says, Chen masters did this too as a response to Yang style popularity.

Best regards,

Ricardo

[lilman]

Thank you for your input. As far as Jing theory, Jing is the martial power behind Taiji. I think the best definition of Jing is "a martial expression of power using Qi to support the muscles". Taiji uses mainly soft Jing. There are some occasions where you can or should use hard Jings, but most is soft. As far as soft and hard Jings, thats just the type of jing a certain style uses. ie, Shaolin is a hard Jing, which is mostly muscle supported by a little, or "local" Qi. You train your Jing softer and softer the older and more experienced you get, cuz you loose muscle power when you reach old age. Soft/hard jings would be like White Crane or Snake style where you use some muscle power but your moves are more supported by Qi, then the Softe styles like Taiji and liu he ba fa where you use no muscle strength, only Qi from your Lower Dan Tian supporting local Qi in your Jing.

As far as the phylisophical side, that is the basis of this discussion. The reason this is so important is because every martial art has a theory. White Crane based their movements off watching a white crane. Snake on a snake, Xingyi off the animals and the I Ching, Bagua obviously off the 8 trigrams from the I Ching. Every document I read on Taiji leads me to believe it is based on Daoist theory, (including Yang Jwing Ming's books). The reason I keep posting on here is because if we misunderstand the Theory behind the art, were not really doing the art at all. If Daoism is not the theory and the 8 trigrams and 5 elements and the I Ching and Tao te ching have nothing to do with it, and it was added after the fact the art was already established, then what is the theory behind Taiji and where did it come from. If its not from the Dao, then we all completely lost our way and the real meaning of Taiji is already lost. If someone claims to know what this theory is, Im just requesting they enlighten the rest of us so we can practice the style correctly, physicaly, internally, externally, and theoretically.

Sure Wiles and them claim to know the history and document it in their books, but so does Dr. Yang Jwing Ming and Wells (who goes into detail in Scholar Boxer) and Grand Master Shou Yu Liang, and documents from Inside Kung Fu, which state that Taiji was created or attributed to Chang San Feng or even before him, and was based on those Daoist theories mentioned above. Whos right and whos wrong?

[Dave C.]

Dave C., do you have the reference where Master Chen Zheng Lei said that?

That came from Joanna Zorya, a UK-based taiji teacher after a seminar with him. My guess is she asked directly.

[QigongUK]

Hi,

Hopefully this isn't a dumb question, but I've looked through the thread and couldn't find where anyone answered the question (although I got a great history lesson thrown in for free )

I ask because I was reading some comments on formosaneijia.com, and saw a reply to a similar blog posting "Difference between Yang and Chen training" and someone posted the following comment:

One other point of this debate, if we are to continue on the Chen vs Yang angle…

Chen style is pretty intact. It is very martial pretty much where ever you train it. The same basic rules apply to as all martial arts training. Train hard, don’t hurt yourself.

Yang style has been watered down repeatedly. A fair number of practitioners, especially in the Wets, have learned a form with no martial aspects, and the relaxation aspect is emphasized. Often, even the qigong skills that make taijiquan an internal art are entirely neglected as well, so you end up with a feel-good dance.

So, when you want to debate Yang vs Chen, I have to suggest that you be specific when naming your Yang lineage, or else its apples and oranges. Why compare?

Its like comparing Hung Gar and interpretive dance.

I personally thought that this was quite surprising, but since I'm currently in the process of picking a Taiji style to learn (having spent a long time with Standing Pole Qigong and Wing Chun) and was quite taken aback.

Incidentally, I really would have liked to learn BaGua, but teachers seem to be as rare as "hens teeth" so that I'm unable to find a teacher without relocating some significant distance.

Is there any truth to the above quote? If so where does a novice to the style go to ensure they're receiving something wholesome so to speak?

Regards

Tony.

[Dave C.]

Tony,
That's a Chen guys perspective. I would take it with a huge grain of salt. Yang style is considered watered down by many Chen stylists because it doesn't train the way that Chen style does.

I did Chen for three years before I did Yang and the training (depending on which branch your studying) can be very different.

Chen style contains lots of external elements that novices mistake for martial training. The obvious fajings, the deep stances, lots of weapons forms, etc. all make people think Chen is somehow more martial. It isn't, it just looks that way.

Yang style is harder for people to understand. There are usually no obvious martial techniques. That's because Yang style seeks to build the internal first and then use those skills martially. So the martial side comes later.

[sysop]

I'm not sure why some people feel this way about Yang style or other styles of Taiji Chuan? I study Yang style, but I've always been taught in Taiji Chuan you use your mind to concentrate on the movements while performing the forms. In my Yang studies it has been said to occasionally imagine an opponent while performing each posture so as to be aware of the intent and martial aspects. Is this not a generally accepted concept?

[lilman]

No Sysop, that definately is a generally accepted concept amont Taiji Players. The reason you see that on this post, is if you mention Tai Chi to someone who never practiced or watched kungfu movies with Taiji, they think your talking about a slow moving dance for health related purposes. Most people now days practice a short form or Yang Cheng Fu's health version of Taiji with no other qigong or martial appolications just for health. It is in a lot of nursing homes, hospitals and healthy living places as nothing more than a slow moving exercise that improves health. Martial techniques are not widely practiced and a lot of secrets have been lost because a lot of people only want the healthe benefits that come with Taiji. That is why you keep seeing that. You are being taught Taiji the correct way, and it is how it should be practiced.

[QigongUK]

To add to what lilman said I think there's also a large lack of commitment in this age of instant gratification.

Part of my dilemma in looking for a teacher to learn from, is that there are so many Sifu that can teach various adapted short forms for exercise and health, which is great, and more power to them for that, it's still very useful and valid and has its place. But I'd like to find someone to teach me something more traditional, long form. That has both Martial and Health benefits in equal measure.

The more of the watered down form teachers there are, the harder it seems to be to find the more learned Sifu. More importantly, everyone claims to have the original, or authentic stuff, which again on some level is true. Which muddies the waters again for newbies like me.

I've had a few try-out lessons with two different teachers, both claimed to have the authentic stuff, one claimed to have the oldest style yang dragon or something, but I was the only student that turned up for the class and the classes didn't continue due to lack of interest from other people. The second told me that he had the absolute original Yang style handed down directly from the family and taught me the first few moves, which after looking for more information online, the online moves I could find that matched were the opening moves to Chen Long Form as per the YMAA video, and he was less than complimentary about Chen practitioners, not a great attitude.

So my search continues.....

[Dvivid]

Qigong UK - Try these schools?

YMAA Chester - Martin Evans
61 Circular Drive, Off Lache Lane, Chester CH4 8LU Cheshire, United Kingdom
Phone: 01352 741958


YMAA London - Olivier Pardo
Gym 4 Phoenix High School The Curve Shepherds Bush London W12 0RQ, United Kingdom
Phone: 0207 269 3431

[lilman]

Also to add to your experience, I have had a similar experience. I am in El Paso, Texas. When I got here I had been studying from books and videos, mostly books for 4 years. I had an excellent understanding of breathing, theory, basic postures, basic training, training sequences, and some Qigong and the theory behind qigong. I also learned a couple forms from books, applications, and vaguely about Jing and push hands.
I started out with Chen style and had knee pain at the time. As we all know Chen is punctuated with knee stamps and fast movements. Well the stamping movements aggrivated my knee pain and its almost impossible to detail the fast fa jing movements in a book, so that lasted about 5 months. Then I got a book on the Chen Man Ching style... Eh. I really didnt like it. No offense to any Chen Man Ching stylists, but a lot of the movements I learned from the book, looked like Chang San Feng's Gorilla doing Taiji... And it didnt fit my personality. Then I got a book from Waysun Liao, Tai Chi Classics, and after reading it, it got me interested in Yang style, even though it was one of Chen Man Ching's students that wrote the book. Since then I have been studying Grand Master Shouyu Liang's, Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's, and Grand Master Jou Tsung Hwa's books on the subject, and Qigong. Most of the credit goes to Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. The man is a genius at teaching.
Then I got here, and settled down with my current girlfriend and had a kid. I then decided to embarq on the quest for a teacher... I started out at a well known local Taiji teacher who teaches a Temple Style 400 movement long form, and Taiji basics at a local college. I ensured him I would be 100% dedicated. He only had 2 students complete the whole form, so I was excited. I was gonna be #3... I was also planning on taking personal classes... Well he wanted $400 for 3 months of practice, and I would pay every 3 months. I wanted to make payment arangements so he dropped the price to $250. I was excited. Well now its time for my 1st class... I was there 15 minutes early and waited 45 minutes, he never showed. I called him and he rescheduled for the next week. Next week I had a financial issue, and asked if I could pay him on the 2nd class, so he rescheduled the first class another week out and told me that money is not important, its all about teacher and student relationship.... lol... well now its time for my 3rd class, still having financial issues. I called to see if I could pay 1/2 now and 1/2 on my next class, he said no very rudely, and hung up on me... Needless to say, that was the end of him... I think he may have been testing my sincerity and preserverence, but my family comes first, and he was wasting my time with them for no good reason. Plus he angered my wife because I cancelled plans to make room for his classes. It is not ancient China and the testing was not necessary. He could have tested me while he taught.
The next place I found was Shaolin Wushu Kung Fu... Which is where I am at now. He charges $55 for 8 classes. He supposedly teaches the Yang Lu Chan, or the Yang Chen Fu, one of those, long forms. He hasnt taught us yet, but different students and papers say different things... When I first got there, I demonstrated the forms I knew. He corrected me becuase when I done the form, I bobbed up and down, meaning my center of balance changed, which was incorrect. When I started practicing correctly, after about a month of correct practice, my knee pain completely disappeared. He started by teaching us the 42 movement competition form and applications. No Jing involved... Then a short Taiji Sword. Then started on meditation and internal aspects... Then he asked us to learn a 24 movment form and applications from a dvd, which I am now teaching, and the applications involve Jing which he just taught us with my help. My teacher is teaching Taiji backwards because of the experiences he had. He learned in Juarez mexico and they trained 8 hours a day, and hes teaching us what he knows in 1 hour a day. And he doesnt know how to break it down in order. So currently I am helping him by assisting him with providing students with basic info, and teaching certain aspects he leaves out. Also I am letting him read some of my books from Dr. Yang that I think will help him iron out the confusion of his students that never read a Taiji book or know what to expect. I am not trying to teach for him, but help him by leading from behind, because he asked for my help since his english is good, but he has a hard time explaining certain things, and some of his training hes not 100% clear on the why aspect. But nonetheless he is a GREAT teacher, and very knowledgable, just needs guidance, and I plan on sticking with him for a long while.
As you can see, there always wont be good teachers around you all the time. The point is, look for the resources you DO have and make the best of them. My teacher now is not the best I could ask for. There are no YMAA schools around, and through this forum, and sticking with him, I learned he is VERY knowledgable, and a good teacher, just not properly skilled Taiji teacher as far as a syllibus, which he does not have. His main teaching is in Shaolin, so he teaches Taiji as Shaolin. External to internal. Which is why the other students are lead astray, which we are trying to correct now. So maybe if you are too far from those YMAA schools, you should try practicing alone, or find a temporary teacher which you consider to be partly the truth. Some skills only a teacher can lead you too, still, a teacher can only lead you to the door. Its up for YOU to enter the temple. So basically once your on the right path, its very hard to be led astray. Consider your sources wisely and discard what you thing useless, and adapt what you know to be usefull.

[Dave C.]

... I had been studying from books and videos, mostly books for 4 years. I had an excellent understanding of breathing, theory, basic postures, basic training, training sequences, and some Qigong and the theory behind qigong. I also learned a couple forms from books, applications, and vaguely about Jing and push hands.

I keep hearing you say you have an excellent understanding of things from reading books. How do you know your understanding is "excellent"? What is it "excellent" in comparison to?

Reading books AFTER you have spent a significant amount of time with a teacher (and hopefully a high-level one) can increase your knowledge. But not before. Don't put the cart before the horse.

[lilman]

Excellent is a relative term Dave C. When I learn anything from books I first read until Im positive I have a good understanding, put it into practice until Im comfortable and it matches what is explained in the books to some degree, and now that I have a teacher I ask questions, compare, show him what I learned, and he makes any corrections based on what I show him, or tells me Im on the right path. From learning from books compared to learning from a teacher, my teacher was surprised at some of the things I showed him, and he didnt have to correct.
Different people learn different ways. I agree you do need an experienced teacher to master Taijiquan, but you do not need one to learn EVERY technique. From books I learned the theory behind techniques, how the technique works, and the practice of the technique. Some people only learn the practice of the technique from the teacher and other information is not provided. So it doesnt matter if you learn from Book and then Teacher, or Teacher and then Book, as long as you learn and are practicing correctly, you will advance.

[Dave C.]

Excellent is a relative term Dave C.

That's a good point. Your understanding might seem excellent compared to those around you, but from what I've seen you post on the board you need to eat a large slice of humble pie.

I've trained with some top people in internal martial arts and NONE of them would say they have excellent knowledge of the arts.

[lilman]

LOL... Well Dave C. I appreciate your posting and I am not comparing myself to other people when I said that. I do not want to make it seem that I think I am better than anyone in this forum, and I am not trying to boost myself to make me look better than anyone else. At this point I am far from being a master and am still learning a lot. I meant It is an "excelent" understanding for someone who just learned from books without a teacher, because I am practicing properly and am advancing without the aid of a teacher in some areas. I am sorry you took it that way and hopefully I didnt offend you with my choice of words, and you'll have a better understanding of what Im talking about now.

[Don Mega]

lilman, I wish you had better luck finding a good sifu since you seem seriously interested in the art and that's very respectable itself surely just by reading books alone it'll be very hard if not impossible to develop ones martial skill, that I also agree with. also you mentioned you have excellent understanding of the theories behind taijiquan but surely you can't do with understanding alone. what's the point of knowing if you can't apply it? like how to take opponent's force to ground or to get good timing and develop reflexes and reactions. or how to attack without giving your opponent too much uncontrolled force to play with and use it against you. there's many things you can only learn with a training partner so there's nothing that can replace a partner. I see some people in martial arts who surely know a lot of stuff and like giving instructions to others, but if you try whether they can do what they just said they often can't. so my point is understanding/knowing is not enough.

but surely since you also are helping with the teaching it is very good indeed you can explain some things more deeply to others, but won't that make your teacher look bad/incapable in the eyes of others? I don't know really but maybe you should be the teacher there heh.

btw I'm very fond of this external -> internal order of teaching and find it much better way to practise. why? because since if your external form is not in balance you'll find it hard getting that internal balance, very simple. we also do it pretty much the same way, only that it's not really that simple and many internal aspects are also taught depending on the students ability to understand. but I could of course be referring to something else with this if for instance you meant to describe the training in a long run (like 30 years time period) then probably it could go internal -> external with us too. hard to say really since I obviously haven't been training 30 years yet and simply don't know. anyway shouldn't both aspects be taught alongside? afterall you can't have other without the other

someone here mentioned you should visualize an opponent doing an attack or something when you're doing each movement in a form. but I find it not working because there's so many things to visualize. if you think about it there's so many applications to each movement and you'd have to visualize opponent to attack differently for the same movement. and the more different applications you learn the harder it gets to connect those attacks with that specific movement. it could work if there was just one visualization per each movement, but still it would be a lot to think about during the form. it's often said to empty your mind (not completely, just from the unnecessary) when doing a form and also to stop any thoughts popping up during it. and this sort of visualization sure breaks up the concentration for me atleast so I don't use it currently, so maybe I'll try it later. however I find it much more useful to just know the application of the movement and when teaching the movement it's very good for explaining it for beginners to show the application(s) for it and knowing this itself can help them getting the movement right, not only externally but internally too. it's kinda automatic to some extent. if you practise taijiquan purely for self defense this visualization thing can be a good method of practising when you don't have a partner, just like shadow boxing.

jfraser quoted:
The only resolution to this problem is to transform the method into no method, and mind to no mind, via gradual and systematic reprogramming of the deeper subconscious mind. In this way, the practitioner allow techniques and strategies to manifest through unmindful automatic reactions and unthinking spontaneous responses, without any conscious awareness of the process.

I'm more interested of utilizing mind during the form and I do the forms often more or less in a meditative state. so if in your mind you constantly are actively thinking (visualizing an opponent throwing all kinds of different attacks at you) it'll be very hard to reprogram this subconscious mind (it's not easy to begin with) which is not accessible when conscious mind is very active. most people's minds are very different and there's no single ultimate guideline which all sifus agree on for what one should think during the form so you have to work much of that on your own. so it's very personal and I personally keep visualizations to minimum to minimize the distractions, only sink the elbows as if they were heavy and other basics. and instead of this visualization of an attacker I imagine a power that pushes against or from certain direction. very hard to explain in words but I guess you get the point, books have more to this subject and for you to try (if it's not working for the benefit of your practise, then practise it some more and if still not then maybe try something else, you can't trust all the books etc. out there afterall). most people have no way to train this subconscious mind and some do this even without realizing but when you do such exercises willingly I guess it's very important to keep it simple and pay close attention and have a steady mindset. actually pushing hands practise does some of the same sort and I find it very good for learning these "unmindful automatic reactions" which was quoted there. wing chun practitioners also use the same kind of sticking practise "chi sao" to accomplish the same, they just use different terms for describing it but ultimately it's the same, so this sort of thing is not limited to taijiquan.

[lilman]

Thank you Don Maga .

As far as my teacher, I do not make him look bad by helping him in class, the reason being, he is at a higher level than me for one, and for 2, all the students know he has a hard time explaining certain things that I assist him with explaining or break down for students cuz he doesnt know how to "dumb it down" I guess you could say... So his teaching and my help and understanding of what hes showing us and the students go hand in hand to make his students better, if that makes any sense...

As far as imagining an opponnet when doing the form, what I do, is I dont ALWAYS imagine an opponent, cuz your right, it does interfere with the meditative mind. But when I do fast taijiquan, I like to imagine an opponent doing different attacks every time, and I try to simulate intensity in my mind like the urgency of a real attack. Practicing this way does help make the applications a natural reaction. Then I also do practice my forms in a meditative state seperately.

Now as far as learning from books, If I learn anything from books, I read till I understand, practice until I get a definate feeling of what the book describes, and either disregard it or add it to my training, unless its too advanced. And now that I have a teacher, I run it by my teacher to see what he thinks, what he can add to it, or what he suggests friom his experience.

As far as internal to external and external to internal... Taiji should be taught internal to external. What I mean by this, you should learn how to feel Qi, Qigong, meditation, how to move your body as a unit, root, proper breathing and concentration before you learn the form. The reason I say this is because when you see the other students in my class do the form, they dont always breathe properly, and they cannot differentiate clearly between yin and yang in the forms. It makes their forms ugly, and they use physical strength eveytime when doing applications no matter how much I try to correct them, so now after a year of practice I am slowly breaking them into understanding these concepts, which is why Im helping my teacher teach...