yang or chen

[Gh0st1]

The practice of taiji should follow the evolution of the art. Chen Form(s) should always be studied first, its principles understood and mastered. Only then should the Yang Form be studied, for only by mastering Chen could Yang be truly understood. The final stage of evolution was expressed in the Wu/Hao Form, which internalized the principles to its subtlest nuances. Beyond that was pure mind method. These, the “four classic forms,” as he considered them, comprised the heart of his taiji study and teachings. At the same time he made no secret of how he felt about the forms outside of these four. The Wujianquan Form was a less advanced derivative of the Yang Form. The Sun Form was a redundant hodgepodge of the three internal arts. Weapons forms were often learned too early in a student's taiji education -- a waste of time that could be better spent in practice and understanding of the principles. All other variants were simply a distraction from the originals.

That is coming from Master Jou Tsung Hwa teachings.
http://www.taichifarm.org/Tai_Chi_Farm_Homepage.htm
http://www.taichifarm.org/Teachings_of_Jou_Tsung_Hwa.htm

So to try and totaly bounce the debate into another direction, I think it is not "one or the other", but "all of them" (TJQ styles).
According to Master Jou Tsung Hwa, they should all be learned and in a specific order preferably.

After training TJQ with Dr. Yang, for a month in a very specific environment in California made me get a deeper understanding of TJQ overall. Also asking many questions and having open discussion with Dr. Yang, I came to think that one style mastered deeper and deeper should/can be enough. As it was said, it would take a lot of time to master all of these styles with their sequences, qigong and martial applicatons.
So I have to say that I changed the way I look at the choice of style in TJQ. I also do not think anymore that it is really possible to master so many styles of TJQ and remember their applications enough to make them all alive in a fight situation.

[yeniseri]

lilman said

In the book The Combat Techniques of Bagua Taiji and Xingyi, it mentions that a CHEN family member wrote a treatise on how the I Ching affects everything in Taiji and if you dont adhere to this theory, what your practicing is not Taiji.

There are many practitioners who are adept in taijiquan who know nothing about the I Ching. It is better to develop the senfa and jibengong, train hard then read the I Ching, if you find it interesting, or as an philosophical afterthought!
Obviously, reading the I Ching and no practicing is unseless unless you like to read and the skill will be in reading not martial skill.
No doubt (today)people do not seek skill but just want to look god and that is the freedom of modern day tai chi.

Tai chi for everyone as each to his own level of play!

[lilman]

If you study Taiji and not the theory, you are not truly doing Taiji. There are certain things that must be adhered to. The movements must be soft and flowing, starting from Wiji, to taiji, and the separation of Yin and Yang with constant changes from begining to end. If this is not adhered to, its not Taiji. Wi should be concentrated at the lower dantian during wuji and it should be lead to the extremeties during the form and applications. You must stay relaxed and soft. No muscle strength is necessary. If the rules are not adhered to, its not Taiji. The I Ching is what Taiji is BASED on, meaning it is the root of Taiji. Dr. Yang says all the time in his books, dont forsake the roots for the limbs and branches...

[yeniseri]

If you study Taiji and not the theory, you are not truly doing Taiji. There are certain things that must be adhered to. The movements must be soft and flowing, starting from Wiji, to taiji, and the separation of Yin and Yang with constant changes from begining to end. If this is not adhered to, its not Taiji.

Taijiquan is both SOFT and HARD (NOT SOFT only) and it can still be flowing and continuous with its changes. Just my experience and it is not meant to be the only view that should be what we call tai chi.

We all can embrace the all of however we see taijiquan.

[Yatish Parmar]

I agree with you.

We all know the confusions between Soft vs Sung and structure vs hard.

[lilman]

thanks for that clarification Yeniseri, but by soft I do not mean there is not hard, but you do not use muscle strength for the hard. The hard is within. Muscle strength is not necessary in Taijiquan. I dont know if your teacher taught you the unbendable arm yet (Yes it is in Taiji, not just in Aikido), How to sink and root your attack, or how to make Qi flow to your oponent, but once you learn those things and learn to uproot an opponent, muscle strength isnt necessary... In fact there are some techniques where muscle strength will hinder your techniques. Especially if the opponent uses muscle strength to over power you, ie Qinna.

I was just merely trying to explain that the Philosophy of Taiji is the root building block of Taijiquan. If you take that out, the rest of the building will fall. Without understanding the root, you will be doing a martial art, but not Taijiquan. Theres more to the martial art than the aplications. Possibly the most important aspect is the circular theory of change and being able to adapt during a fight. Listening Jing is related to the "Divination" aspect of the I Ching. Taking action only when necessary, action of non action, moving and not moving, all that must be understood to be proficient in Taiji. You must know where and when to focus your energy. All this you could get a better understanding from, and actually comes from the I Ching and Tao te Ching. As a matter of fact, some statements in the I Ching and Tao te Ching are almost coppied exactly the same in the Taiji Classics. Its like at my job, I work in Tech support. We have to understand why and how certain things work. If not it is possible we can give wrong info or do wrong steps and cause more issues in the future. Without a full understanding, we could miss something small that could make a world of difference. Same in Taiji. If you misunderstand the theory and just go on practice alone, you could be missing something. I dont know how to explain it better than that, but if Im misunderstanding the importance of theory, pls explain.

As a matter of fact, a lil off the current subject, I just started learning some Chen from my current teacher, What I learned from the I Ching and the Tao Te Ching is all there... Wether they base it on it or not. Its more agressive and the applications are a lil more dirty then Yang, but it still has a similar softness in the movements and applications, and everything else is almost exactly the same. Its just the forms thats different...

[Chen Haiyang]

Dave C., do you have the reference where Master Chen Zheng Lei said that?

That came from Joanna Zorya, a UK-based taiji teacher after a seminar with him. My guess is she asked directly.

"Taijiquan is based on the boxing style handed down within the Chen family, and is in accordance with the theory of the Book of Changes, or Yi Jing, the traditional Chinese medical theories and practices of Jingjuo, Daoyin, TuNa, and also the principles of dynamics. The creators of taijiquan comprehensively summed up all of the above in creating boxing routines whose movements have the characteristics of alternating Yin with Yang, Hard force with soft force, and quick movements with slow ones; having leaping and rapid rapid energy releasing movements, and being posessed of a relaxed, yet resilient and wave like, vibrational type of energy. This is in accord with human physiology and natural principles, and that is why the art is known as 'Taijiquan' (boxing art based on the Chinese cosmological principle of the primordial state of matter possessing the two inherent potential energies of yin and yang)."

From the authors preface: Chen style Taijiquan, Sword, and Broadsword by Chen Zhenglei (English Edition ISBN: 7-5348-2321-8)

Stop the BS speculation and second hand quoting.

[Dvivid]

I prefer data based on objective research rather than speculation or rote repetition of traditional beliefs. I recently became interested learning more about this issue after seeing some similarities between taijiquan and some martial styles from 500 - 1000 AD...

http://www.ymaa.com/articles/origin-of-taijiquan

[Chen Haiyang]

How were the sources on this authenticated?

[Dvivid]

http://www.ymaa.com/articles/origin-of-taijiquan-references

After months of research finding what I could in English, and referring to the history of tai chi as written by several Masters, I also passed the article to my teacher, Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming who has collected, translated, and researched ancient Chinese history more than any other practitioner that I'm aware of, and it met with his approval.

Any and all other data is welcome, and Im sure more will become available as tai chi increases in popularity...

[lilman]

According to what I been learning Taichi came from the Chen family. Chen learned from Shaolin and combined it with Wudang and his chigong silk reeling to create taijiquan. This is evident cause Chen style has a lot of movements from Shaolin longfist and Wudang boxing just slowed down and combined with silk reeling. Wudang taiji didn't surface until yang style became popular. Its possible it could've been around before then buy not likely. Since all styles came from the Shaolin 5 animal styles you can see similar movements in most martial arts. Its hard to trace conclusively before the Chen family, and since no conclusive evidence exists its pointless to argue or speculate.