1 of the 8 Gates - Split (Lieh)

[dedicated]

I was wondering if anyone knows any applications or links that go further into detail about this posture, thanks.

[Tarandus]

Fu Zhongwen was the senior disciple of Yang Cheng Fu and published a book in 1963 on the Yang Cheng Fu form which has recently been translated into English by Louis Swaim ('Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan'). In the section on Dalu, he has this to say about Lie:

'Lie method: According to the explanation of dalu four-corner tuishou in Yang Chengfu's Complete Book of the Essence and Applications of Taijiquan, lie is introduced as follows: "....grasping the left wrist of B is cai. If the right hand does not move, then this is a 'compressing' (qie, jie, lit, to 'cut off'). When transformed, it conveniently becomes lie. Lie, then, is to push away B's left elbow, and to use the palm to strike slantingly toward the base of B's neck." This explanation is assuming A rolling back to the left, and B performing shoulder stroke. A uses his left hand to pull down (cai) B's left wrist. At the same time, he uses the right forearm (ulna side, near the wrist) to stick to B's upper arm (slightly above the elbow joint), rolling back to the left. If "the right hand does not move", then he uses the ulna to "compress" B's left elbow joint. If he "transforms in advantage to lie", then the right hand "pushes away B's left elbow", and with the thumb side of the back of the right hand "strikes slantingly toward the base of B's neck." Because of this, the movements of lie are comparatively less evident. Lie is only present in the intent, or during the transformation. In this way, when using the back of the hand in a strike, this is "lie". Besides this, there are two additional ways of talking about lie. One way is to use the word shan (a "lighting strike") to describe the lie palm; another is, after A has rolled back, he follows through by sinking his right elbow, leading to the right to neutralize the kao energy of B. This is called lie.'

Kind regards, T.

[dedicated]

thanks for the reply, but truthfully i dont understand

[Tarandus]

dedicated: this is basically a counter to shoulder stroke (in this case, left shoulder stroke). The idea is that when the opponent applies left shoulder stroke, you counter by plucking down his left wrist and with a roll back motion compress his left upper arm just above the elbow with your right upper forearm. This is lie, split, which can instantly be converted into a counterattack - the lightning strike with the thumb side of the right palm to the opponent's neck. However, I suspect that this description in Fu Zhongwen's book might be a variant, as in Yang Cheng Fu's original book, also translated by Louis Swaim, what happens with the lightning strike is that it is done with the left palm to the opponent's face while the right hand still compresses the opponent's left elbow. Without illustrations, it is difficult to get this point across, I must admit. According to Yang Cheng Fu, Lie corresponds to the trigram Zhen. Kind regards, T.

[dedicated]

thanks for that explanation, i understand it now. but it can be used for more than just against a shoulder strike right? like sticking to the opponent after he stikes w/ hands and pull/follow them down?

[Tarandus]

Dedicated: yes, you are right: Lie is an implicit move, which is to say that it can remain in rollback with just the intention or it can be converted into the lightning strike in the actual event. Kind regards, T.

[dedicated]

the 'lightning strike' is a palm strike using the part below the thumb? any pics?

[Tarandus]

That's correct, assuming in the example given you are using the right hand, in which case it is the right side of the right hand adjacent to the thumb, but if you are going to execute the strike with the left, then it is a palm strike. I don't think there are any illustrations on the web: You need to get either of the two books I have mentioned to see them. I think you have focussed on a very interesting Tai Chi question. Lie is often referred to in theory in terms of the 8 directions but hardly if ever explicitly taught or referred to from the point of view of the application(s). If you do the Yang Cheng Fu form, it is present just after Pao Hu kwei Shan (Carry Tiger to Mountain). Pao Hu Kwei Shan is essentially Lu Shi Au Bu with a turn throuth 135 degrees to the rear. Then there is a quick movement which my teacher calls 'Change Arms' (practically the only movement he ever refers to with an English name). It corresponds to Lie, Split, and is then followed by rollback. Another application of split is in Separation of Right Foot and Separation of Left Foot. The hand movements preceding the kicks correspond to slapping down the opponent's oncoming fist and then with the momentum of the waist turning to jab him in the eye with the 'lightning strike'. Kind regards, T.

[dedicated]

alright, thanks a lot

[Dave C.]

The problem with lie is that it usually isn't taught until the dalu -- big rollback -- level of training. The reason is that it utilizes other moves like pluck (cai) and rollback (lu) in the movement. To split, you usually need two points of contact, with one hand splitting while the other hand does pluck, rollback, etc. This is evident in the quote above from Fu's book.

This sounds harder than it is.

Think of doing an armbar with rollback. As you pull the opponent back with the rear hand, you will apply split (lieh) with the more forward hand or forearm. That's lieh.

Almost all the other applications of lieh that I was taught are armbars.

I wish I could point you to Dr. Yang's push hands DVD's (especially the ones covering courses 3 and 4) but he choose not to cover lieh, zhou (elbow), and kao (usually shoulder) on that one. Maybe in a future release?

[dedicated]

oo, so could the single whip posture be used as split?

opponent punches - you grab his wrist and bring it back where your hand is in the crane posture - and use the attacking hand

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[Dave C.]

oo, so could the single whip posture be used as split?

opponent punches - you grab his wrist and bring it back where your hand is in the crane posture - and use the attacking hand

????????????????????????????????

Whether that application is a version of split or not depends on what you do with the "attacking hand" as you call it. If it strikes to the body, then I would say no. If you use it to armbar the opponent's arm. then yes.

But then which of these jins the applications emphasize will depend a great deal on your styles interpretation of those jins. One group could say a move is an application of split and another group might call the same movement an application of pluck. It depends on which part of the move you emphasize sometimes.

[dedicated]

so is split a lock instead of a strike? now im confused...

[jfraser]

In Yang Lu Chan's lineages, including Imperial Yang TJQ (see www.Shenmentao) and the Yang Xiaojia (small frame)I study, 8 gates refers to the set or sets moving in a certian order in the eight directions of the compass, and certain order that responded to various hexagrams from the Book of Changes. The feeling and movement is out and back to the center of the compass, then out in a different direction. Different froms use various movements in varied directions. What jin is used will vary upon the teacher and who his teacher was. I was told these 8 directions are very important to practice and understand.
I hope I did not comfuse you more.

Seeing the 8 gates practiced is rare even in the tradtional city of Shenyang, which has a long history of high level Gung Fu masters. Those that know don't show in public and are hard to find. They test perspective students and rarely will take a new student. The traditional systems, such as Yang small frame, and Tongbei 108 are very difficult to learn, even if you are lucky enough to get a teacher.

Best regards,
James

[Dave C.]

so is split a lock instead of a strike? now im confused...

It depends on what you're trying to do. Most applications of split in taiji are locks. But notice that xingyiquan has split -- it's called pi. In some versions of taiji, the split is done in a fashion very similar to pi from xingyi, meaning it can be used as a strike as well as a lock.

The Chen Pan-ling form that I do has a version of the move "deflect, parry, and punch" where the right hand comes down like a backfist and the left hand follows in a position much like pi from xingyi. That's a taiji usage of pi/split energy that is a strike.

jfraser,
Those eight gates (stepping directions) aren't what's being discussed in this thread.

[jfraser]

Sorry, maybe I am hallucinating, but somewhere I saw the reference to 8 gates.

Also, while it can be useful to understand on a conscious (ordinary) mind level the function(s) of various movements in TJQ, my understanding is that it is more important to regularly and repeatedly practice TJQ with a "meditative attitude" and get the conscious mind out of the way. Over time this kind of practice stimulates the deep mind or sub-conscious, and an application of a particular movement, when needed in a fight, will come out, and it often will not look like anything you have thought of or practiced. Thinking in a fight, where you focus on if he does x then I do y, can get you hurt or killed.

While my teacher will show me applications of various movements, when I ask him what I should be thinking about in this movement or that movement, he will say, "nothing". As far as I know there is no one application for a particular movement, such as "single whip". As George Xu has said, in a movement there is a function in every inch.

So, this is my reaction to this dialogue is in the subject. Sorry, if I am stepping on anyone's toes.

A Tonbei Quan master told me recently that many years ago someone challenged him, and a a movement came out that put one side of his challenger's face to the other side of this man's head. This challenger was seriously injured! He emphasized this movement came out of him without conscious intention or thought on his part.

[Dave C.]

Jfraser,
Again, the "eight gates" (bamen) that you're referring to isn't what is being discussed. This is a discussion of one of the eight basic energies (bafa) of Yang style taijiquan. You might know them better as the 13shi or the shisanshi -- eight energies plus five "steps."

My practice is to not just post things that I been told by my teacher. I don't find that useful. I post from my own direct experience in applying these arts. From that experience (but yes, also from what I've been directly taught), you need to actually know and practice many applications of the individual moves of Yang style taiji.

It doesn't work by osmosis.

Be well.

[jfraser]

I know shisanshi differently. In the Yang Xiao Jia I am learning it is 13 jin done in 8 direction of a compass, and as far as I know does not exist in the large frame Yang TJQ systems that are taught. It is a from or set, separate from the long form of this Xiao Jia system, decended from Yang Lu Chan.

And I did not at all refer to "osmosis", directly or by intent, in my last post on this topic. So, we differ in opinion and experience. I stand on my quotein my last post on this thread, from the movie, "The Last Samurai" and refer you to the posts on Imperial Yang TJQ by Sifu Stier on the Tai Chi Chuan section of his forum at www.shenmentao.com, regarding application of TJQ and learning applications.

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[lilman]

Well my personal experience and understanding of Split or Lieh in Tajiquan, which Im surprised no one mentioned, is more fluid. It can be a strike, an armbar, or you can use your shoulder and arm to take the opponent down, to setup locks with various parts of the opponents body, or even break bones. Split is any movement that moves one hand forward and up, and one down and back, as if splitting a piece of wood or bamboo or something. an example as a direct advertiesement of split in the taiji form, would be diagnal flying or wild horse parts maine. There are more subltle instances where split can be applied, and the applications of every movement should be fluid and changeable. There is more than one application for every movement.

[Josh Young]

This energy is also called tear and rend in addition to split.
What most people mistake for a shoulder move right before white crane flashes wings is a split energy move in my tradition.

It involves putting pressure in two directions as once with a standard taiji jing motion, be it long or short energy(fa-jin). There is no way to do it justice with words. Like all of the other 8 energies it can be used with any (TJQ) posture and in combination with the other energies.