Which form should I choose ?

[Tarandus]

Kuroyama: I must express some slight disagreement here. If one is talking about the Yang Ban Hou form, then as far as I am aware, only Yang Jwing Ming teaches it, and if I'm wrong on that, certainly he's only one of the very few that do, so therefore by definition there can be very little if any of the sort of fragmentation and disagreement to which you refer. Also the Yang Cheng Fu form, namely that of Yang Ban Hou's son, is still taught by Yang Zhen Duo, Yang Cheng Fu's youngest son, and also by Yang Zhen Duo's grandson, Yang Jun. They are the living familial authorities on the Yang Cheng Fu style. Certainly, there are all sorts of 'variants' on the Yang style, but they nearly all derive in some way from the long (103 movement) form of Yang Cheng Fu. If one sees therefore either the Yang Cheng Fu or the Yang Ban Hou form as the benchmark (or both), then there is little room in actual fact for fragmentation or disagreement, provided one sticks to the authentic sources I have mentioned here. Personally, I was also fortunate enough to learn the Yang Cheng Fu form from an authentic Chinese source in London. Also, Yang Cheng Fu's original book on the form has recently been translated into English, complete with original photos of Yang Cheng Fu, as has Fu Zhong Wen's book. Fu Zhong Wen was the senior disciple of Yang Cheng Fu and his book, also recently translated by the excellent American scholar and Tai Chi practitioner, Louis Swaim, contains many line drawings taken from Yang Cheng Fu's own postures or those of Fu Zhong Wen. Many videos of Fu Zhong Wen as an old man performing the form can now be viewed on YouTube. Kind regards, T.

[jfraser]

Edited with additions on 05/12/07

My experience is that keeping simple with whatever form of Tai Chi makes it a dance that many millions practice in China and around the world.

In a small park across from this Chinese University, where I live and teach,
I found a "spot" where I go to practice TJ in the late afternoon, since it has warmed up outside. When I was practicing in my spot, a Chinese man in about 50 years old, walked up to me, and shook his head in a negative manner. He apparently disapproved of Dr. Yang's Ba Dwan Ji, which I learned from Dr. Yang's excellent DVD, on same. I was using as a warm up and for health, and, after shaking his head, he proceed to teach me his form of TJ walking.

On the surface, it seems that this slow walking is simple. But, looking closer, and with some teaching from him, what seems simple on the outside, is actually very complex, highly functional application wise, and high level on the inside. For some reason, he elected to teach me this "indoor" version of TJ walking, maybe because I was the only non-Chinese in this park, I don't know. And this walking is not simple to do. My point is, partly, that he did not try to teach me a TJ form. You can do a form for decades, and unless you find a teacher that will open the door to the inside of TJ, you will be just doing a dance. He taught me some of the essence of TJ, and it is included in this TJ walking. The basic jin is all there, but done with very small, refined, movements and hard to see without a sharp eye, and some instruction. This walking, as far as I know, is his practice. As far as I can tell, his TJ is very high level. He can do this for hours, he is very relaxed, and I would not want to be on the receiving end of his fa Jin.

Yang TJQ, Chen, of whatever variation, is full of details, if you can find a teacher that: 1, knows the details; and 2, is open and willing to teach these details. No details, no martial art and no internal or qigong development. There is a lot hidden in TJQ forms, and as George Xu once said, "In every inch of each movement there is a (martial) technique". Without specific and detailed training in opening/closing, Chan shir jing, body alignment, waist training, rooting, etc. it is almost impossible to know, understand, experience the flowing of Qi, move in a really connected way, let alone use any internal Chinese Martial Art, whether it be TJQ, Xing Yi Quan, Baqua, Zirmen, Liuhebafa, etc.

Keeping it simple, while I understand your point here, being "teacherless" in Southern Japan, will not go very deep, no matter how many years you practice. I guess it depends upon what you want from TJQ? If you want some relaxed exercise, then the 24 Yang form will do. The 48 is primarily for form competitions, such as among Wu Shu departments in Chinese universities.
It is physically more demanding, and still simplified.

Xing Yi looks simple on the outside, but that is deceiving. Internally, it is also very complex, detailed and takes much work and time to learn correctly, maybe not as much as really traditional TJQ, though. Xing Yi has many variations, also. Hubei and Hunan are more commonly known, and there is also Dai Family, various forms of Shanxi Xing Yi and the Muslim Xin Yi Quan.
For an example of Xing Yi internal details, get a DVD on the Dai family Xing Yi basics from the Web site mentioned in the paragraph below. Or, there are articles and film clips of same on this Web site. Then you will understand what I mean.

Very good instructional VCD's and DVD's made in China, often with English sub-titles on Chen and Imperial Yang TJQ, Xing Yi, XIn Yi, etc., are available at very reasonable prices.

If you want to keep it simple and have it work, find a good local Karate teacher. perhaps Kokushinkai, Shirei or Goju teacher.
Internal Chinese martial arts are not simple, and take many years with a good teacher to learn. Or, consider Bujinkan Ninpo, which has many
Chinese roots, or Diato-ryu Aiki-jutsu.

I am learning a rare form of Yang TJQ, xiao jia or small frame. Other than the 8 fundamental movements, (e.g, pung, liu, gi, ahn, etc., it looks little like the medium or large frame TJQ that T, refers to, for example. The stepping and stances are very different, done at shoulder width, with pivoting on the balls of the feet, the front knee tuned in at a 45 degree angle (like Hung Gar Kung Fu), to interfere with a direct kick to the groin, in the bow and arrow and cat stances, and with a great deal of leg trapping of the opponent. The usage is very "up close and personal". I have been working almost daily for close to a year to get the incredible details correct in about 4 movements, 2 short sets of 8 direction movements, and a difficult TJ walking. This is the traditional way of teaching to an indoor student. I have not come even close to learning the long form of this system. If no details, you miss the boat by a long ways, in the long run. Once you have the details down, the rest comes fairly easy, so my teacher says. In the last few weeks, I can now feel the Qi flow through my body, hands, and out to my skin. I am making no effort to direct it, or control it. But, in the beginning it is very difficult and many Chinese people start and quit. I have been looking for decades and covered many miles to find the "real thing". and I am not quiting now.

Good luck in your training, and finding what you are looking for.

James

[jfraser]

Sun Tzu,

I just received 3 VCD's from chinafrominside.com on Imperial or Wu Dong Yang TJQ. Though the audio is in Chinese, these instructional tapes are extremely clear and easy to follow. This set has broken rhythms and expresses fa li similar to Chen style whole body vibration. With your other training, you may find these most interesting to study.

One of the tapes is the xiao jia set from of this system video taped in front and back. There are no flowers in this set, nor much hidden, application wise. This is not the same Yang Xiao Jia i am learning here in Shenyang. The stepping makes sense to me. Usage is fairly obvious.

The second one is instruction about San Shou applications or what Xing Yi calls lines, plus short sequences done both solo and with a partner attacking. You will see some very different and useful applications of pung, liu, gi, ahn, etc. You will also see beng quan, pie quan, etc. The TJ set (no, 1 referred to above) and the San Shou set are quite different. Many of the movements and stepping in this San Shou set, application wise, reminds me of Muslim Xin Yi Quan, which is known for its cruelty and effectiveness. The are also some movements that remind me of Lan Shou Quan.


The third VCD is Yang TJQ Shen Gong or "Cultivate Life (Spirit) Skills".
I have not had a chance to watch this VCD yet.

If you are still looking for a YTJ system to study without a teacher, I would highly recommend these 3 VCD's, which are part of a larger set of VCD's on this Imperial Yang TJQ system. You can buy all or select the ones that interest you, in this set.

Best of luck finding what you are looking for,

James

[Dvivid]

Actually, the current plan is that Master Yang will continue giving seminars each Winter in Boston, and he will now also offer Summer seminars in CA. He will travel less and will focus more time in CA as of Spring 08.

http://ymaa.com/seminars

We shouldn't speculate about seminar schedule changes...as the Retreat Center project comes together, things may continue to change.

PS - YMAA can ship to any country in the world directly:
http://ymaa.com/publishing/dvd

[abersold]

hello:

Real brief, I believe master yang Jwing Ming's Taiji apporach to be the most complete Yang Family Taiji training available, for the serious student and it has a training reference product almost in two complete category book and dvd.

He's obviously a very busy Master I recommend training with any of teachers that teach for him. I have expierenced Master Yang, and his students which are a mirror of his excellence in teaching. There something for everyone check out taiji ball series a totally underrated training practiceand probaly one of the best.