Tai Chi Sword/Law/Practising outside.

[Kuroyama]

Tarandus

I recommend you google "little raven" She is a lady in the states that makes EXCELLENT wooden swords but standard and custom design. Ive bought 6 swords from her (2 straight, 1 pair of matched dao, and another pair of custom matched dao that I gave as a gift). I have been thrilled with the fine craftsmanship, and durability of them all.

The reason I bought the swords was because my home (San Diego) is not clear about what swords are legal where. If I suspect suspicion will ensue, I use a wooden sword.

I have since moved to Japan where sword laws are awfully strict (I doubt Englands would/could be moreso) My wooden swords are just fine with the police here.

As far as your local policemans argument that a wooden sword looks like a real sword so it equates to carrying a real sword under law... sounds like so much hogwash. Please consult an attorney who can get you FACTS and not guesswork. A shinai is designed for kendo....not in any way resembling the balance or feel of a Chinese straight sword. Some argue that wooden swords dont either...but they have used a little raven sword before.

Figure out if its legal (you shouldnt be made to suffer because `no one is sure`) then email the lady from LR...youll be glad you did.

[Tarandus]

Kuroyama: actually, I AM an 'attorney' in the UK sense of the word. I am an Advocate at the Scottish Bar, though no longer practising, as I have moved to England where the law is a little different in a number of areas. I am currently requalifying to practise here. I have done all the relevant legal research, and I agree with you that the police are probably talking hogwash on the subject of wooden swords, but there is no hard-and-fast case law on the subject, unfortunately, so they could charge me if they felt like it, and while, as I said in my original email, I think it highly unlikely that I would be convicted, nevertheless, I can do without the 'hassle' of a trial. As for the Shinai, yes, I am aware it is used for Kendo and that is one of the reasons I bought it. In my view, it accordingly qualifies as something like a fencing foil, i.e. a piece oof sporting kit, not a weapon, if the police try and charge me with anything for using it. Also, the police said I could use a stick, and the Shinai is not as hard as a stick. In fact, I don't find the balance too bad if I hold it right near the Tsuba. Being square in cross-section, it's quite good discipline as it forces me to be really careful about my hand position, as I don't have a flat blade to guide me as to whether to hold it vertically or flat; this has to be done with the hand position alone. When I visit my Mum, I practise in the privacy of her garden with my metal Tai Chi sword. I did so recently and found the metal one was really easy, even though it's a comparatively heavy example. Clearly, the Shinai has been good discipline. Now I really love my Shinai! I'm even thinking of taking up Kendo ..... (only half-serious ...) Kind regards, T.

[Kuroyama]

Best luck to you

[DOM]

If it is such a big problem to practice with a sword in public were you are,then don't practice with one.Practice bare handed when in public and use a real sword in private.

[Tarandus]

Dom: this would mean I would only be able to use a real sword a few times a year. My flat is too small even to fit the hand form in here, let alone the sword form, so I have to practice both forms outside; there is no alternative. I still feel the need to have something in my sword hand, even if it's only a stick, as it helps my mental imaging. Maybe one day that won't be necessary, but not yet. Regards, T.

[leighspost]

If the sword ban comes into effect you may not even have the sword to practice with

[Tarandus]

I was reading a news article on the sword ban recently and the government has decided the ban will only apply to cheap imitation 'Samurai' swords. This confirms my original analysis of the proposals on previous threads. Genuine martial arts practitioners and collectors won't be affected and it will still be possible to purchase genuine Samurai swords. Hence, contrary to your fears, my Tai Chi practice will remain unaffected. Kind regards, T.

[leighspost]

The question is how do they intend to enforce the ban? Would, as the proposal suggests, every japanese sword except for those made by licensed smiths in japan be banned?

What about cheap tai chi swords? Surely the 'yardies' would buy a cheap jian or dao that is just as good as a katana?

Who would enforce the rule? Would there be inspectors for swords? can a customs officer tell the difference from a katana and dao?

I just don't have an idea about how the ban could be workable? I think it would be similar to gun legislation where you would need to obtain a license from the To-Ken society or something.

It should be interesting to see what is decided.

[Tarandus]

Leighspost: I agree that the proposed legislation will be difficult to enforce, and will probably involve a lot of administrative time and expense in licencing, etcera, as well as taking up more of the time of Customs and Excise. Actually, I now remember that the article I read was about the sword ban in Scotland, which I understand is imminent, rather than the English proposals, which are of course still 'on the table' till May 28th (if I remember rightly). I think, though, that where Tai Chi swords are concerned, these tend to be unsharpened whereas I believe (though I may be wrong), that the 'imitation' Samurai swords are sharpened. But there has definitely been a social problem to do with imitation Samurai swords, as the statistics appear to show that they are the most commonly used weapon in cases involving fatalities apart from guns. Also, Samurai swords seem to hold some sort of fascination and mystique for the yobs that use them in violent crimes and I don't think that Chinese swords would have the same kind of appeal for those idiots, somehow. Kind regards, T.

[Hermes]

Fortunately I live in Arizona where I could wear two sixguns and a Crocodile Dundee knife to the park and not be in violation of any laws. England is getting awful strict.

You know that the string on the back of the shinai is supposed to represent the back of the sword. That helps to orient it. I studied Kendo in Japan for a year. I used to do my 800 cuts every day at the park with a heavy wooden boken sword. One day a cop showed up for a chat but understood my situation and left me be.

My suggestion is you practice with a wooden cane. The weight is much closer to a taiji double edge sword. It's the one weapon you can carry anywhere. Just tell the bobbies you sprained your ankle.

[Fred Binchy]

Unfortunately the law often has to be drawn against the background of dealing with the "lowest common denominator", in terms of human behaviour.

If you go to the Irish Times website (Ireland.com) for this week, you will see a story of a young man, who was assaulted in a public house, and had his hand lopped off by an assailant, wielding an ornamental samurai sword. The Minister for Justice is now looking at a revision of the law which may ban the possession of such swords, unless you are a licensed user. This seems to me to be a fair proposal, given that one cannot carry knives in public places on your person, and creates an exception for law-abiding, licensed persons engaged in martial arts practice.

I thought you may be interested in the story in the context of your topic under discussion.

in conclusion, there is an old Chinese saying, that in times of peace, a gentleman should always keep his sword at his side!

Fred

[sysop]

Unfortunately the law often has to be drawn against the background of dealing with the "lowest common denominator", in terms of human behaviour.

Fred

And unfortunately the law only applies to those who are lawful. Those who obey and respect the laws suffer the most, as their interest, hobby, or form of self defense may now be removed from them. Whereas, the criminal element continue to ignore the law and do as they please... at least until caught.

I have to wonder, since it was an ornamental samurai sword, what would the Minister for Justice do had he bludgeoned the young man's eye with a pencil?

[Fred Binchy]

Think for a moment. Presumably you live in a democracy. Thats means you suscribe to a set of Laws for the greater good. For the wider protection of individuals generally, & society. It does not mean that you agree with all laws passed, but you are bound to acknowledge the system if you live within it's domain. It does not mean that you do not stay alert for your personal good, or for the best opportunities to practice your art. It may mean that you cannot carry your sword in a public place, but it does not mean that you won't be licenced, or that you will be denied the opportunity of practice in less public areas, e.g. your club or Dojo. It simply means seeking an acceptable level of compromise.

[Leushenko]

I saw this thread and joined the forum just for this -

I have had first-hand experience of being arrested because of a weapon, and after a great deal of chitchat at the police station and research, can confirm that in the UK, a wooden sword is NOT an offensive weapon.

The police recognise three categories of weapon (not including firearms, which are a separate issue).

Weapons of offence: Items designed for no purpose other than killing and maiming. This includes knuckledusters, quick-release folding knives, any throwing weapon with more than two points and a number of other things, the vast majority of which are mentioned specifically by name in the relevant Act. You may not possess these.

Offensive weapons: Items that are intended to kill or maim, but that have other uses. This includes swords, fixed-blade knives and similar items. These are not generally mentioned by name: the rule is that these have "a blade or a point". It includes edged weapons with the edge removed. You may possess these and use them for legitimate purposes such as martial arts or display, but taking them off private property without proper precuations (such as a sealed box) is against the law.

Improvised weapons: Any item can and will be classified as a weapon if you use it in a threatening or harmful fashion. This is the category that creates confusion: while a wooden sword has neither a blade nor a point (unless one sharpens it), threatening other people will lead to a weapons charge. So, in theory, you cannot be prosecuted for forms practice with a wooden sword. "It looks like a sword" does not refer to the law; it refers to the fact that you *will* encounter someone either stupid or vicious enough to claim you threatened them, whereupon your pink and fluffy Hello Kitty brand bokken *will* be classified as a weapon.

Therefore, use of wooden swords in public is not illegal, but inadvisable unless you have at least one friend who can attest to your innocence.

I hope this helps!

[Dvivid]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

Samurai sword ban comes into force
"Samurai swords have now become illegal weapons under long-awaited new laws.

Selling, making or hiring the elaborate Japanese-style blades now carries up to six months in prison and a fine of up to 5,000.

Higher penalties of up to seven years' imprisonment and an unlimited fine apply to people caught importing the swords.

However, collectors of genuine Japanese swords will be exempt, as will bona fide martial artists and historical re-enactment groups.

The date of the ban was first announced last December.

Home Office minister Vernon Coaker said: "The Government takes violent crime very seriously and we are determined to do all we can to protect individuals and communities.

"Having undertaken a wide consultation we recognise that it is the cheap and easily-available samurai swords that have been used in crime. That is why we have made sensible exemptions for genuine enthusiasts."

He added: "This ban is part of our wider strategy to tackle serious violent crime. Later this year we will launch a new advertising campaign aimed at preventing young people carrying knives."

Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) spokesman on knife crime and Deputy Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Service, Alf Hitchcock, said: "These are not the most common weapons for people to carry and use in violent crimes, but nationally there have been some significant incidents, serious assaults and murders using a samurai sword. So we feel the introduction of a ban is much needed."

[Yatish Parmar]

a couple of equipment suppliers had huge clearout and miao dao's were going cheap as they came under the samurai sword classification.

[taiji108]

Anyone know what the rule is if you live in NY,
I currently live in an apartment, and want to practice
the sword forms I learned in China.

[Dvivid]

I *think* that as long as your equipment is properly sheathed while you travel to your destination, though you will get some funny looks on the subway, it is legal to carry in public. I think you can train/practice in public as well, so long as you are well away from a crowd.

We shot in Summer 2006 in Central Park, and had a crowd including police watching Ren GuangYi wield his sword.

But I don't know the law for certain in the US. Anyone?

[sysop]

Anyone know what the rule is if you live in NY,
I currently live in an apartment, and want to practice
the sword forms I learned in China.

http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menuf.cgi

("Laws of New York" link then "PEN" link)

Pay particular attention to "ARTICLE 265 - FIREARMS AND OTHER DANGEROUS WEAPONS"

IANAL and TINLA, but here is the synopsis from the New York code:

First off the code does not seem to specify a sword other than

13. "Cane Sword" means a cane or swagger stick having concealed within it a blade that may be used as a sword or stilletto.

So assuming cane sword would be similar in nature:

A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when:

(1) He possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal
knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles,
chuka stick, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type slingshot or
slungshot, shirken or "Kung Fu star"; or
(2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto,
imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon
with intent to use the same unlawfully against another;

He possesses any dangerous or deadly weapon and is not a citizen
of the United States;

It shall be unlawful for any person under the age of sixteen to
possess...or any dangerous
knife;

Emphasis added as the code states this as the condition upon which a person is guilty of criminal possession. I'm assuming you are also a U.S. citizen over the age of sixteen?

I think Dvivid is correct that carrying the weapon is legal and will get you some looks, but beyond the criminal possession issue, would be the issue of inciting panic. If those around you are panicked by the site of your sword and feel threatened, there could be some potential for a charge against you if those around you attempt to contact a police officer and the officer deems the situation as such as to present a threat or danger to yourself or others around you. As always, obey any orders or commands a police officer may give if you do have an encounter with your sword, as the officer is surely going to be on edge with you possessing a potential weapon.

This, of course, is state law, but in some cases municipal laws may be stricter, but obviously no more relaxed than the state laws. So as long as you are a U.S. citizen greater than sixteen years of age, carrying the sword without intent to use it against another person, and you make a concerted effort to keep it "on the down low" (not fully concealed or that might be a violation of concealing a dangerous weapon) during transporting it, it looks like you'd be OK in the state of New York.

Personally, I avoid the situation all together by carrying and practicing with a collapsible metal Tai Chi sword when in public locations. Plus it fits conveniently in a back pack out of site until I find a nice quiet place to practice. Here is a picture and link to an example:



http://buykungfu.com/?mainURL=/store/category/5fm1/Gims_straight_swords.html

[Dvivid]

Thanks for the great reply!