Tai Chi Sword/Law/Practising outside.

[Tarandus]

Here in England, it's illegal to carry an 'offensive weapon' in a public place, or to carry anything with the intention of using it for an offensive purpose. Certain weapons are prohibited by statute as offensive weapons in themselves - but as for the rest, whether or not something is an offensive weapon in itself (irrespective of the purpose for which it is carried), is a matter for the jury to decide and there is accordingly some case law on this subject. Last summer, I wanted to practise Tai Chi sword outside in a nearby park, as there is not enough room in my flat. I therefore went to the police station and asked if I could use my (blunt) metal Tai Chi sword. The police said, no, as they would charge me for carrying an offensive weapon if I did so. I then asked if I could use a wooden Tai Chi sword instead, but again they said no, as in their view a wooden sword still 'looked like a sword'. So I asked them then, what an earth was I allowed to use in their view? They replied that I could use a stick. So I went to a martial arts shop and saw some very expensive sticks for sale that just looked like lengths of solid curtain pole. I also thought about buying a straight length of bamboo. Then I saw a Kendo Shinai. This is basically a stick made of four strips of bamboo bound together, with a grip. It's actually designed to cause less injury than a straight length of bamboo, for instance, as it is shock absorbent and designed for full impact Kendo fencing - albeit with suitable protective clothing. So anyway, I now use the Shinai every day in my practice. It's not ideal, as it doesn't adequately represent a flat blade, but at least that encourages me to be really fussy about my sword hand position, and the Shinai is quite well balanced. But were the police right to stop me using a metal sword? Well, I looked up case law on the legal database, Lexis, and found an English case concerning a man who had his belongings stolen in Victoria Station, London. He reported the theft to the police, the thief was apprehended, but the police then discovered that the complainant had a metal Shaolin sword among his belongings. He was then charged with carrying an offensive weapon. In his evidence at his trial, he explained that he was only carrying the sword to practice on his own with it in a quiet place and therefore was not carrying it for an offensive purpose. However, he was convicted nevertheless for carrying an offensive weapon, as the trial judge directed the jury that a shaolin sword was an offensive weapon in itself. The accused was sentenced accordingly, but appealed to the Court of Appeal, which quashed his conviction on the grounds that the judge had not so much misdirected the jury on this point, but had directed them at all on it, since the question of whether a weapon of that sort was offensive in itself was a question for the jury, and not a matter for the trial judge. The result of that case, in my view, is that in terms of the law of England and Wales, the question of whether a shaolin sword, and by analogy, a Tai Chi sword, is an offensive weapon in itself, remains unresolved, and my view therefore is that if the police charged me for carrying an offensive weapon if I used my metal sword in the park, I would probably have some chance of being acquitted at trial. On the other hand, of course, I'd rather not take the risk! So I carry on with the Shinai instead. Can anyone tell me, out of curiosity and interest, what the American legal position is on the subject of practising with metal swords outside? Does it vary from state to state, for instance, or is there federal law on the subject? Has anyone on this forum had 'trouble with the law' as a result of practising outside with a metal sword? Kind regards, T.

[Inga]

Hi Tarandus,

I have the good fortune to have a garden where I may train with no implications. The shaolin/taiji sword IS a weapon. There is no way around that. If the law is in place, the police have no choice but to enforce it. It does surprise me the Shinai is acceptable, I would have thought it's martial intent was equally clear. It was annouced last week at one of our seminars that the laws have recently changed here (sorry I did not catch if it was a state of national law) and now one must carry weapons in a locked solid case if using public transport. Hopefully someone from headquarters will elaborate on this for you. I do not live in the city, and I do not anticipate any difficulty transporting my practice weapons to and from the school or using them in my garden. I do not have any moving sword sequences to practice, but I do have many sword drills which are static and require little or no space. But perhaps you are already doing that. I was just thinking that the drawback to using the Shinai so exclusively is getting used to a different silhouette. The drills I practice require turning the blade; some have the blade flat, others on its side. Having said that, I am a junior student, and don't know the letter of the law with regard to your question. Hopefully you will get some better answers soon.

[Tarandus]

Thanks, Inga, for this contribution. The Tai Chi sword form also required many turns of the hand, for blocks, and then are different thrusts,sometimes with the sword flat, sometimes with the blade vertical. As I said, using the Shinai involves real discipline as regards being very pedantic about the hand position , as obviously, the 'weapon' is round, or rather, cruciform in section. That said, I have paid particular attention to the hand position, and I have practised every movement of the Tai Chi sword form indivdidually many, many times with my metal sword in my flat. It's just when I have to connect the form up that I can't do it at home. But when I visit my Mum, she has a garden, so I take my metal sword with me and practise in her garden. Thus I am able to practise with the Shinai without any problem really, and without compromising the correct hand position. Of course, also, many Tai Chi sword practioners practise 'air sword' as it were, not holding anything, but just imagining the blade. On the subject of whether a Shinai is a weapon, I rather think it isn't, as I would describe it really as a piece of sporting kit, like a tennis racket, cricket bat, or more to the point, a fencing foil. It's designed to absorb impact, and as I said before, this means it can't in fact cause as much injury as a straight piece of bamboo of the same thickness. Then again, there is a suggestion that Kendo might become an Olympic sport this time round, which would of course add force to the contention that the Shinai is a sporting implement, not a weapon. In any event, as I've said, since it's less dangerous than a bamboo stick or a solid stick, which the police gave me permission to use, I would certainly have no hesitation in mounting a defence if charged. Actually, where I practise, I have seen other martial artists with staffs and spears, and once, someone practising Tai Chi broadsword with a wooden broadsword. No-one seemed to bothered. But as I mentioned before, the law here is lamentably vague on this subject, but at least that means that serious martial artists who have no intention of doing anyone any harm can make use of the vagueness for the time being, until there is some definitive case on the subject. Kind regards, T.

[Inga]

Ah, that all sounds good. I think I would be very tempted to use my equipment in this location you mention if others are doing it, and the public do not seem alarmed. I don't know if you are in an urban area or not, but if the locals are seeing you (and others) practicing regularly, and you are a fixture than I can only see that is being in your defense, ie, it is an established, friendly occurance. And if the law is open to interpretation, and it came before a judge, this would certainly be a plus. In particular if you are using wooden weapons, which clearly speaks "practice" to the layman (or lawman) more than a metal practice sword. Of course this whole conversation lends itself to thoughts about what is a weapon. Funny how we perceive things. The man wearing a speedo swimming costume on the boardwalk is acceptable, the man walking down the High Street in his briefs (boxers, pants, smalls, take your pick) is indecent.

[Tarandus]

Thanks, Inga. Yes, I'd dearly love to use my metal sword in the park, or even a wooden one, but I really am frightened of being charged, even though I have seen others using the wooden weapons I've described. Maybe I'm just paranoid but I don't want to be the one with the bad luck. I'm sure I would be acquitted if charged, but frankly, I really can't be bothered with all the stress, so I'll go on with the Shinai, which I've sort of got used to now. I completely agree with you about our different perceptions about the same or analogous things according to varying circumstances. I've often wondered why it's O.K for a woman to walk down the street wearing trousers, but if a man walks down the street wearing a skirt, he'll get some very strange looks, to say the least! Certainly, there are 'double standards' everywhere, very often as regards the most obvious everyday things. In ancient Greece, the men wore, effectively, what would be regarded nowadays as 'mini-dresses' and in the Middle Ages, men wore tights and short skirts (with very prominent 'codpieces'). Try getting away with that nowadays! But of course in terms of geological time, those former dress codes are just a second away. Kind regards, T.

[Inga]

haha, Please don't get me started on the history of costume, that is a pet interest of mine. Many cultures have men wearing skirts, in the wonderful British Isles a Scotsman may be proud to wear his tartan. Some European and Mediterranean military uniforms include "skirts", and I believe some of the polynesian islands have men wearing saris. And of course, cough*Beckham*cough. Anyway, back to topic, it's a shame you don't feel comfortable using a wooden sword where others are practicing, but I agree, stress should be avoided when it easily can. Good luck with your training. I hope you get some response about your original questions about legality and "trouble with the law"..Sorry to have digressed so much.

[Tarandus]

Inga: thanks, I've also found the digression most interesting. Well, no, I'd prefer not to discuss Beckham, though I must admit, as it does occasionally get hot in England during the summer (more so now with global warming), I have occasionally toyed with the idea of getting a Beckham style sari for wearing indoors, as my flat can get really stuffy and hot in July and August. I'm half Scots, and did indeed have a kilt when I was a boy. I'm Scottish on my mother's side, and entitled to wear the Matheson tartan. But actually, the kilt is made of very thick and rather course wool (particulary the 'hunting' variety as opposed to the dress variety, which is finer), and frankly, it's really itchy! On the subject of others in the park using wooden weapons, maybe they just haven't been to the police station to check on the police's attitude. But the police do patrol the park from time to time, and there is a large police station very close by. And because I have actually enquired with them about this issue, and they've been negative, I suppose also I feel I have to abide by their decision, even if others seem to be unaware of their attitude. Thanks for your good wishes about my training. I certainly think I'm making gradual improvements, and I feel my sword form is becoming more fluent. Also, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I fractured an ankle four years ago, but despite a very speedy recovery, it never quite healed 100%. But Dr. Yang's sword form has made a huge difference to it, particularly when I concentrate on lifting the heel as high as possible in false stance. I have virtually no discomfort at all from it now. Kind regards, T.

[yat_chum]

Hi Tarandus, have you considered a Telescopic Tai Chi Sword like the one featured on the following link
http://www.playwell.co.uk/store/acatalo ... ords_.html
surely this can't be considered a weapon.
_________________

"My hands are swords and my arms are spears." Shaolin Saying

[Dave C.]

I highly recommend that you move to a place that isn't so hell-bent on self-destruction that they consider a wooden sword an "offensive weapon." A small town up north where political correctness doesn't determine your every decision may be more conducive to training.

Honestly, I couldn't live in the UK for reasons like this. I'd be dead or in prison.

[bludeblu]

Regarding the telescopic Taiji sword, I don't reccommend it, as it can be viewed as a concealed weapon. In New South Wales, Australia, they don't like telescopic things.

I haven't had any problems with wooden swords on my own in the local park, but I only use my metal ones for group practise. I think, provided it's not listed as a restricted or illegal weapon, it should be okay.

However, the Police would know. Perhaps you could seek another opinion from different police if you're still worrying?

[Tarandus]

Yat-chum: thanks for your suggestion and for the link. I've actually seen such swords around, and have considered using one, but given the attitude of the police even towards wooden ones here, because in their view they 'look like a sword', I just don't want to take the risk of being charged for using a telescopic one for the same reason. I think I'd probably have a good defence, but I can't be bothered with the stress! Thanks anyway, though. Kind regards, T.

[Tarandus]

Dave: I don't know much about small towns up north and whether living there would provide a solution to this problem. It might well, but also I'd have to contend with colder weather and more rain, which for me would outweigh the advantages. I used to live in Edinburgh, where it's really, really cold in Winter. I had friends from Norway, Nova Scotia and Finland, who all said Edinburgh felt even colder than their own countries, because although the absolute temperature is higher, the cold there is a damp cold and the wind chill factor is severe quite often. I read somewhere that the Scottish Parliament was going to introduce legislation that would effectively ban all practice martial arts weapons in Scotland, but I don't know how the proposals have progressed. I agree, there are some very unsatisfactory things about living in Britain, but at the end of the day, in my case, having to practise with a bamboo Shinai won't force me to leave. However, the current hypocrisy, lies and chicanery of British politics and the gross inefficiency and culpable inertia of the British Civil Service might well have that effect on me before long, as well as the vile bad manners of many people here these days. Kind regards, T.

[Tarandus]

Bludeblu: thanks for the tip about telescopic swords and the way they might be viewed by the police and the courts - I think the way they are viewed in NSW might well be analogous to the way they'd be viewed here also. You're right, it's possible I could check with other police for their view, though I did go to the central police station in Hove (part of the 'City of Brighton and Hove') where I practise. I'll bear this idea in mind, though. It's unsatisfactory practising with a Shinai, but I have got used to it now, and as I've said I can practise in my Mum's garden with the metal one when I visit her. Kind regards, T.

[leighspost]

The Scottish parliament were trying to ban swords. I have no idea what the progress is on this though.

Its so frustrating that you can't even use a wooden sword in the park. I have a garden so use a real sword for practice. If this wasn't the case I would use a wooden one and take my chances.

The police would have to be really stupid to try to prosecute for an offensive weapon. It can't cut or stab it could only club. Are baseball bats banned from parks? What about cricket bats? Do we need a license for a cricket bat?

It would be clear that you are practicing MA and not trying to kill anyone. You are also acting responsibly by using a wooden sword in public. No one is in danger.

The police will always err on the side of caution because they don't want to be seen as doing the wrong thing and especially getting sued.

Treat yourself to some nice wooden swords and enjoy your practice. Once you get used to it you will wish you always had used one.

Don't be afraid to stand up against stupidity or ignorance

[Tarandus]

Thanks, Leighspost. It might be that a wooden sword would be the ideal compromise, but as I said, the police told me not to use one. Still, you're right: the chances of them actually getting a conviction if I did would be remarkably slim, and I've actually seen some wooden ones advertised that have a sworn off tip. I've just spent the last week with my Mum, and was able to practise with my metal one in her garden. I wish I could practise with it more, as it's a Shaolin Temple Factory one, and took me a long time to find, as it's a bit longer and heavier than the usual Shaolin Temple ones and has the added advantage of a metal handle which is actually welded to the blade, thus improving transmission and handling and avoiding potential rattle in the handle joint. I agree about baseball and cricket bats. These are potentially much more dangerous as weapons than a wooden Tai Chi sword. Kind regards, T.

[Tarandus]

Further to my original posting on this subject, the case I mentioned that was decided in the Court of Appeal has been upheld in the House of Laws, and accordingly the appelant's (Wang's) conviction has been quashed. However, this was on what might be termed a technicality (namely as a result of a direction by the trial judge). Accordingly, it would be highly inadvisable in the circumstances to practise outside with a Shaolin sword or a Tai Chi sword in this country. A full text of the House of Lords judgement can be viewed here:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... wang-1.htm

I would in particular like to draw attention to the following passage from the judgement of their Lordships:

'17. Had the learned judge left the present case to the jury and directed them in the ordinary way, it seems very likely that they would have convicted. There could then have been no effective appeal. As it is, the Court of Appeal's judgment highlights the dangers of judicial intervention. It may well have been "very far from clear" what the appellant's intentions were. The nature and extent of the appellant's religious motivation had been the subject of evidence. The appellant's evidence of not wanting to leave the weapons at home with no one to look after them may well have given rise to nuances (to adopt the language of Lord Keith in Stonehouse) not recognised by the judicial mind. These were pre-eminently matters for evaluation by the jury. Belief that the jury would probably, and rightly, have convicted does not in our judgment entitle us to consider this conviction to be other than unsafe when there were matters which could and should have been the subject of their consideration.'

In this connection, please also refer to my messages on UK Sword Ban elsewhere on this Forum.

Kind regards,

T.

[Yatish Parmar]

I often train with someone on a rec ground behind Wormwood Scrubs prison. We were doing sword basics one day with wooden swords. Bear in mind that this was I think the 3rd time that we'd done this these exercises there. We'd been there for about 45 minutes and had plenty of conversations with the OAPs that seem to be out jogging/walking at that time of day when two squad cars and CID come roaring along. They started to run towards us and then changed their minds when they were about 30m away. One of the cid came over and said someone called 999 and said there were two people fighting with swords in the park. I started cracking up at that point because we had been doing static four corners for over half an hour.

But yeah, I wouldn't recommend training with a wooden sword in public. If you are in the UK and you get stopped, after you have explained to the copper why you are walking around with a bunch of swords in a LOCKED bag, make sure that they fill in a form and give it to you to carry. This means that if the police stop you within 24 hours you just produce the documentation and walk.

[leighspost]

There is now a proposal to ban the purchase of any sword in the U.K. except for Nihonto (authentic) Japanese swords. That means it will be impossible to buy a sword for practice and impossible to buy a genuine tai chi jian/dao.

The proposed ban is in its consultation stage and the Home Office are asking for the views of the martial arts community. Its important that they recieve our views.

The consultation paper can be found at:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/documents/cons-ban-offensive-weapons-0307
The closing date for responses to this consulation is 28 May 2007.

When the ban comes into effect you will no longer ba able to purchase any sword.

[Tarandus]

Leighspost: the document to which you provide a link is in fact the same document as the one to which I referred above, and from which I quoted. Accordingly, please refer to my previous postings here on the subject of this document and the topic in general. Kind regards, T.

[Tarandus]

Leighspost, to clarify my previous message, I meant the discussion on UK sword ban on this Forum (as well as this one). The link to the discussion is here:

http://www.ymaa.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1733

Kind regards, T.